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Old 01-22-2022, 12:15 AM   #1
Boge
 
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Default Archery in this game kind of sucks.

I get that it's more realistic being slower and doing less damage than a sword or axe slash, but this is a game. There should be some gameplay balances that make bows a bit more useful.

I just played a session where my group attacked an outpost of soldiers geared in mail...not too rare for a fight. ST 13 , skill 18 with strongbow, but the best bow I could get my hands on was 14. So 50% of the time I won't deal any damage to an armored foe IF I can even hit them in the first place. The fight starts 30 yards out, so I can take time on my first shot only to try hitting in an unarmored spot. I miss the face by one and hit the armor where it plinks off, no surprise. The melee combatants rush in and somehow make it there within a round..??? Okay, I can't be a rules lawyer, so I don't say anything and just fast draw and ready another arrow while the melee characters are rapid striking the enemies for 2+ dice damage each swing.

Needless to say, that's how the combat went and it just isn't fun. Penalties are way too high to be able to hit in any weak points. Damage is too low to do anything otherwise. It would cost me another 40 points to get Heroic archer and Weapon master which would net me a +2 accuracy on each shot and a +2 damage on each shot...for 40 points.

Conclusion, bows suck in turn by turn combat in Gurps. I made this character because I thought it might be fun or cool, but it's just useless is all.
/rant
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Well bows in real life were not that effective against armoured troops, except in salvos.
So realistic rules will make them less than ideal. However, GURPS has many cinematic options that increase their effectiveness.
What point total and books are available in your campaign?
Knowing that we might be able to suggest better options for you.
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

This is a game, so if your character spends the points to be superhuman, he can be. But if you just spend the points to be a human archer, you can't shoot through metal armour, any more than your character can walk on water or through walls.

Archery is useful at range, but at melee ranges, normal people draw melee weapons. If you don't want that, spend points on archery-adjacent superpowers, like Heroic Archer, Weapon Master (Bow), etc.
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Nobody else going to call out that unless everybody else is packing cinematic/super powers, as described the GM just blatantly erased the range that the archer needed to even remotely justify their specialty? I mean, 30 yards of clear ground isn't really enough to give a non-cinematic archer great results, but it's more than one round. (Unless you meant one round after you spent a round drawing your bow and a round aiming and a round shooting. 4 rounds is probably enough time for people charging at each other to close 30 yards in GURPS.

That is, to a significant degree the problem you're having isn't with GURPS, it's with your table having zero interest letting you use archery.

Now that said, it's quite likely you don't in fact want to play non-cinematic archery in GURPS. Because when you're doing it right, the 'melee guys' aren't in melee while you do it. They're standing around watching you plant arrows in out-of-reach enemies. Or preferably, they're shooting their own missile weapons alongside you, but gamers are often conditioned to think of melee and missile combat as separate roles.

If a GM wants to enable archery and melee happening simultaneously, making sense, and not using cinematic archer abilities, there probably needs to be hard-to-reach ranged-attacking enemies that the melee types will appreciate the archer removing.
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That is, to a significant degree the problem you're having isn't with GURPS, it's with your table having zero interest letting you use archery.
I second everything Ulzgoroth says. The way you tell the story, it sounds like the table let you get one shot off, and after that just fast-forwarded to the melee and left you in the dust.

About the only thing I can add is to point out that bodkin points give a (2) armor divisor, and the only cost is changing to piercing damage. With Weapon Master you'd basically ignore DR 4 or lower.
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Old 01-22-2022, 03:25 AM   #6
Plane
 
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
The melee combatants rush in and somehow make it there within a round..?

Okay, I can't be a rules lawyer, so I don't say anything
Covering 30 yards in 1 second is pretty quick, the melee guys you were fighting sound superhuman.

Tactics can help, like maybe you should from the other side of a mud pit which slows down people running from it?

Or from the top of a hill, it should be harder/slower to run up hills, though I don't know if GURPS has rules for incline running.

Plus there's also letting your melee allies tank while you retreat to a new firing position.

If enemies follow youto chase you, they expose backs to your allies they ran past.
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Old 01-22-2022, 03:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

I'm wondering what the exact damage and DR numbers were. At ST 14, the bow should do anywhere from 1d to 1d+3 (depending on type). A mail shirt has only DR 2 vs impaling attacks. Your chance of doing damage (if hitting) should have been good even for a short bow, guaranteed for a longbow or composite bow.
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Old 01-22-2022, 04:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

I can't offer any advice (not enough experience) but I can offer some sympathy: it sucks when you pick a cool option and then it doesn't work for whatever reason.
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Old 01-22-2022, 04:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
A mail shirt has only DR 2 vs impaling attacks.
A mail shirt has DR4 vs impaling. It has DR2 vs crushing.
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Old 01-22-2022, 05:22 AM   #10
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

With the specified situation, you have effective ST 14, for thrust damage of 1d. A longbow does thrust+2, or 1d+2, or 3-8. A mail shirt has DR 4, so a regular arrow penetrates it two times out of three, for 1-4 points, doubled to 2-8. Average damage is 3.3 points. If you use arrows with bodkin points, the DR is halved to 2, so the arrow always penetrates, for 1-6 points, not doubles, for average damage 3.5 points, marginally better. It could be said that using regular points was a mistake, but it was a minor one. The biggest issue was that it gave you a chance of not penetrating.

However, if you started out at 30 yards range, it ought to take more than one turn to enter melee. They probably have at least light encumbrance if they're in mail (16 lbs. just for the torso armor), which reduces their Move to 4, or 5 if they sprint. So you get 3 shots before they close, assuming you can ready in one second with Fast-Draw. (You spend the sixth turn getting out a melee weapon, or retreating behind the hand-to-hand fighters.) In 3 shots, you expect to hit twice, and you expect to inflict total damage of 10 points.

Perhaps your GM simply didn't understand the rules well enough to realize that they had to give you several rounds of target shooting. Or perhaps they wanted to cut to the chase, and not have you pick off enemies for five rounds while the other party members did nothing. But either way, they were making your character useless, and that's on them. I think you should have spoken up. "Hey, wait a minute, so they can run 30 yards in one second?"

Now that it's done, though, maybe you should talk with the GM privately. Point out that the rapid close to melee range isn't actually how the rules work, and that if they had said at the outset that the foe were only 10 yards away you would have played differently. Ask them to track the range accurately turn by turn. If they're reluctant, tell them that you'll need to play a different character, because an archer is useless under those conditions. Assuming the GM wants you to have fun, they ought to go for one or the other.
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