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Old 01-06-2022, 06:51 AM   #11
exalted
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default Re: Flaws in D&D classes, and what you think is a good patch.

Going by 3.X and pathfinder, the main problem is that casters get new class changing abilities on the 1st, 3rd, 5th etc...levels while fighters get +2 damage or something else inane. It generally doesn't get better as fighter like characters usually have to pick certain increase the numbers feats to stay relevant and as such gain less choice in picking feats even while getting more feats.

Its like some classes simply get a larger version of the same tool on each level while the "good" classes get a few new tools regularly. Getting new tools is generally more fun and while it might not be strictly better all the time its different from the Step / Full Attack which is the main point of martial classes from whenever they get a second attack to the end of the game. Probably why 3ed and similar games have always been best between 3rd - 7th level or so before magic and full attacking really takes off.

Also why the hell are some classes so skill point starved, never made sense to me :) Its like some classes aren't supposed to do anything outside combat which is simply bad design. Even worse since the game basically encourages dump stating in Intellligence and Charisma for "fighter" characters which basically cuts their options even more :D.

Some of the best class design in 3.X and pathfinder is probably the laters hybrid classes such as Alchemist, Arcanist, Inquisitor and Magus which kind of do a lot of things decently but aren't full on combat or caster characters and gets a lot of toys and options.

Currently actually starting up a pathfinder like game but went with a lot of homebrew including point buy character creation with no classes just features with a cost, action points and many things that are locked behind feats as standard such as finesse fighting, maneuvers hopefully giving fighters more different things to do.

Last edited by exalted; 01-06-2022 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 01-06-2022, 08:36 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Flaws in D&D classes, and what you think is a good patch.

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Originally Posted by exalted View Post
Some of the best class design in 3.X and pathfinder is probably the laters hybrid classes such as Alchemist, Arcanist, Inquisitor and Magus which kind of do a lot of things decently but aren't full on combat or caster characters and gets a lot of toys and options.
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Paovarian the Alchemist laughs at the idea he wasn't a full-on combat character. It was at 15th level but he holds my personal D&D/Pathfinder damage record with 200 pts in a single round.

He was designed originally as a Knowledge skill monster and did that very well.

I had a 3.5 Ninja who once managed over 100 pts in a single attack but I'd have to do retro-research before I could fully describe the FEAT chain that made that possible.

5e was carefully designed sot hat every character get _one_ thing at every new level. It worked beautifully for my Half-Orc Barbarian and pretty well for my Kensai Monk. If your Class/Archetype combo doesn't give you somethign decent for your level it can be disappointing though.
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Old 01-06-2022, 10:46 AM   #13
exalted
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default Re: Flaws in D&D classes, and what you think is a good patch.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Paovarian the Alchemist laughs at the idea he wasn't a full-on combat character. It was at 15th level but he holds my personal D&D/Pathfinder damage record with 200 pts in a single round.

He was designed originally as a Knowledge skill monster and did that very well.

I had a 3.5 Ninja who once managed over 100 pts in a single attack but I'd have to do retro-research before I could fully describe the FEAT chain that made that possible.

5e was carefully designed sot hat every character get _one_ thing at every new level. It worked beautifully for my Half-Orc Barbarian and pretty well for my Kensai Monk. If your Class/Archetype combo doesn't give you somethign decent for your level it can be disappointing though.
I'm not saying that they aren't combat capable, a properly built character of any class can be a monster, but they aren't only combat monsters they are able to do a lot of other things well as well. An alchemist can do melee, grenades, spells, rogue skill monkey stuff, knowledge skills and probably a few other things. You can build them in any of half a dozen directions well many classes doesn't have that width of options. Pathfinder somewhat fixes that with archtypes for the less versatile classes but at the same time the power-creep in those mostly turn base classes obsolescent instead of adding new options. Which in turn make it very much a system mastery exercise rather than character building.

We once had a Magus and a Druid who mostly deleted any enemies within reach to the point where the GM confided later that pretty much every HP pool was twice what it should have been, or that there simply where twice as many monsters and it rarely helped :D Reliable x3/x4 crit multipliers make for hundreds of damage :) On at least a few occasions during the adventure path a intended "epic" fight ended turn 1 when the druid charged named NPC X and critical hit. It was both funny and a bit wrong :D

Last edited by exalted; 01-06-2022 at 10:57 AM.
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