supers: nine options

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, I haven't tried building him in GURPS yet. Or in Champions, though I don't have a sense for how realistic Champions is physically.

You can make it somewhat realistic, but it mixes linear and exponential scaling in a way that will inevitably have issues if you're trying to simulate anything, you need to pick a path and stick with it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You can make it somewhat realistic, but it mixes linear and exponential scaling in a way that will inevitably have issues if you're trying to simulate anything, you need to pick a path and stick with it.

It's always bugged me that each step of Strength in Champions gives you xN strength, but each step of speed gives you +M speed.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's always bugged me that each step of Strength in Champions gives you xN strength, but each step of speed gives you +M speed.

The problem has more to do with when they combine in the same situation. For example, lets say my target has as PD of 28.

It takes Strength 40 to get stun damage through half the time. It takes Strength 140 to get body damage through half the time. Strength 140 is one million times stronger than Strength 40.

Now, in a superhero game this is not necessarily a problem, a character who is mildly rattled by being hit by a car but still survives being hit with nuclear weapon isn't clearly out of genre, but it's certainly a problem for realistic modeling.

[whswhs]

I've always remembered when Teen Titans used to describe Cyborg's white noise generator as putting out a million decibels. Given the number of zeroes that adds to the power density, it was louder than the Big Bang. . . .

[Irish Wolf]

Champions is pretty unrealistic physically, to be honest. I don't recall the exact figure, but there was an entry in Murphy's Rules about a normal human being able to disassemble a car with their bare feet in something like a minute and a half.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Irish Wolf

Champions is pretty unrealistic physically, to be honest. I don't recall the exact figure, but there was an entry in Murphy's Rules about a normal human being able to disassemble a car with their bare feet in something like a minute and a half.

There's also the one where a baby sits on a quarterback's shoulder to throw a football because a baby can throw that football further than any real human.

[whswhs]

I've rebuilt all the Absolute Power supers on 60 points instead of 50, taking some care to (a) optimize their capabilities (b) subject to consideration of what kind of combat advantages they have. Now I've figured their odds against three foes: Mr. T.C. Mits, Leroy Brown, and G.I. Joe, respectively an average man, a thug, and a soldier with a high-powered rifle.

Against Mits, all of them win. The telepathic spy and the inventor win by attrition; the speedster likewise, unless he does a rush and knocks him out; the night stalker grapples him into submission; the indestructible man and the strong woman take him down with one blow.

Against Brown, hand to hand, the spy dodges repeatedly but gets worn down; if it comes to guns, whichever hits first injures the other seriously, and she's got better odds, 66% versus 44%. The indestructible man wears Brown down, never being hurt. The night stalker can grapple Brown, or wear him down with repeated knife cuts; he's much less likely to get hurt in the process if he does this under cover of night. If Brown shoots at him he risks a substantial wound, but at night he's a nearly impossible target, and Brown may not even see him coming. The speedster will lose against Brown hand to hand, but he's a superior marksman, virtually certain of hitting, while Brown will probably miss him; the odds are Brown ends up shot. The strong woman can knock out or seriously hurt Brown with one punch, while he can't seriously hurt her; if he shoots her she'll be seriously hurt and she needs to take cover. The inventor wiill be worn down; if he's in flight, a shot will injure him seriously, but the first shot will probably miss, letting him retreat.

The strong woman can knock Joe out with one punch; the indestructible man, the night stalker, the inventor, and the speedster can wear him down, though all but the indestructible man will take damage. The spy will be worn down, despite being hard to hit. If it comes to rifle fire, most of them will be seriously hurt. The indestructible man can stand a few hits, close with Joe, take his rifle away, and batter him with it—though he can't stand up to massed fire.

Most of them can be assets on the battlefield, though not necessarily in infantry combat. The spy would be an asset of a different sort. Several of them can take on a street thug (the night stalker does best at night!); those who can't may be able to shoot him, and are often better shots.

These characters can probably take effective action against street crime, without being guaranteed an overwhelming victory. I think they're at the margin of sufficient point value.

[whswhs]

I've started looking at Champions (4th edition), another system specifically tailored for creating superheroes. Designing characters in it seemed more straightforward than I had expected. However, I'm unsure about one element: the END costs of movement.

On one hand, the rules provide a general statement that powers should cost 1 END per 10 active points (which can be lowered to 1 per 20, or to zero, by applying advantages). On the other hand, they also say that movement should cost 1 END per 5". Either cost is applied in each phase.

So take on one hand Mr. T.C. Mits, who has 6" running movement, 2 SPD, 20 END, and 4 REC. He can run twice in a turn, on phases 6 and 12, covering 6" each time, for a total of 12". That comes to 1" per second, so it takes him 805 seconds to run a mile, or 13 minutes 25 seconds. If we apply the rule based on powers, then that costs him 0 END and he can keep running all day. If we apply the rule based on movement, it costs him 2 END to run for a minute; and since his post-segment 12 recovery restores 4 END, he can still keep running all day.

However, he might be doing noncombat running at x2 speed, or 2" per second, taking 402 seconds to run a mile, or 6 minutes 42 seconds. At 24" per turn, he pays 5 END, and then gets back four. He can do this for 35 turns with no problem; on his next turn, he reaches 0 END, and gains back only 4 END, and the turn after that he starts taking STUN. So he can manage 7 minutes, just enough to complete that mile, if we apply the rule based on movement. So far movement-based costs seem a workable choice.

But what about a speedster? Let's take a modest case, one who can almost reach the speed of sound, at 170" per second. We'll assume that she has SPD 12, so she has one phase per second, and runs 170" per phase. If we pay for the inches of movement directly, the point cost will be very high. Instead, let's apply the rule that 5 points will buy x2 to noncombat movement. She gets the first x2 for free, which requires 85" of running. Further multiples take us to 43", 22", and 11". So let's have her spend 10 points to have combat running speed of 11", noncombat speed of 22"; and let's spend 15 points to raise her noncombat speed to 176".

If we have her pay by the inch, then it costs her 35 END to run at full noncombat speed, and she'll collapse after her second second of running. Not good.

If we have her pay by the point of power, it costs her 2.5 points to run for 1 second, or 30 points to run for 1 turn. She can manage that one turn of running. We might buy up her REC enough to cover multiple turns, though that's going to be a big part of her budget, a lot more than the running will cost her (though the higher SPD will cost even more). And now we've got Mr. Mits not paying any END for his running.

So maybe four color speedsters always buy the END cost of their running down to 0?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I
However, he might be doing noncombat running at x2 speed,

Non-combat movement does not increase END cost. Active Power Pt cost is based on Combat Movement.

That clause about paying for Movement by the "inch" is in there because characters get 6" free. You do have to pay END for using that even though technically cost you no points. Once you include this "effective" 12 pts of Active Power Pts Movement costs END at the rate of 1 END per 10 pts of Active Power Pts (round normally).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Non-combat movement does not increase END cost. Active Power Pt cost is based on Combat Movement.

That clause about paying for Movement by the "inch" is in there because characters get 6" free. You do have to pay END for using that even though technically cost you no points. Once you include this "effective" 12 pts of Active Power Pts Movement costs END at the rate of 1 END per 10 pts of Active Power Pts (round normally).

I wondered about noncombat movement; I thought it ought to be free, but the rules didn't seem to say so explicitly.

So suppose we have a character who has SPD 12 and just uses the base 6" running. If they spend the whole turn running, that's 72", which costs 14 END, I think. They recover 4 END after segment 12. So they can run full out for 36 seconds, and in the next turn after that they start taking STUN, right? That makes it important to buy REC up for speedsters. With REC 6 they take STUN on the fifth turn, with REC 8 on the sixth, with REC 10 on the eighth, and with REC 12 on the fifteenth. So they can run about 1.25 miles in three minutes, for 100 points of SPD and 16 points of REC. Or twice that if they use noncombat move.

If they want to emphasize noncombat running, it looks like the best choice is to buy up their noncombat move a time or two and not bother buying up their base running speed.

Thanks, Fred. As always, your analysis is helpful.