supers: nine options

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

The cover title is 4C System. The DTRPG page is "Four Color System"
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...tem-Core-Rules

Thanks! From a scan through it, it seems to be an OSR treatment of Marvel Super Heroes. I have played in an MSH campaign, but I don't remember the details of the system.

[whswhs]

It might also be an interesting exercise to work through David Pulver's fan publication Guardians, a D&D-modeled exercise in treating supers as character classes.

I've done an initial set of revisions on my test characters in Absolute Power, boosting them from 50 points to 60. Having done that, I tested each of them against three adversaries: an average man without special combat abilities, a thug with greatly enhanced brawling and a tough physique (and with a knife and handgun for backup—kind of like Jim Croce's Leroy Brown), and a soldier with some hand to hand training, excellent marksmanship, and a high-powered rifle (I followed Fred's recommendation to make it one step more powerful than an assault rifle, on a level with a sniper rifle).

* The telepathic spy has the edge over the average man, being able to sense his intentions, but she can't overcome the physical superiority of the other two. She's not bulletproof.

* The indestructible man can shrug off nearly anything any of them can do, and then keep hitting them till they collapse. The rifle is a problem for him, as it can actually injure him, but the total effect is comparable to that of a solid punch on an ordinary man.

* The night stalker runs into trouble against the thug, who's massively stronger and tougher than he is. He can improve his chances by fading into the shadows. In wartime he was a perfect choice for what S.M. Stirling calls "sentry removal," sneaking up and cutting throats—but of course that would make him a wanted murderer in civilian life.

* The speedster and the inventor with a flight harness do best by a slam attack after a high-speed run or dive. If they get into a stand-up fight the thug will pound them into the ground, and the soldier will be a tough match. However, they're vulnerable to being shot as they run or fly at their foes. This might be improved if I used the optional rules for high-speed targets being harder to hit.

* The super-strong woman can beat anyone hand to hand; not being invulnerable, she wears heavy leathers that protect her from most fist blows, and she can take even the thug down with one punch. A pistol shot will sting but not seriously hurt her. A rifle shot will hurt her; I gave her enough of a boost to shock capacity so it won't put her out of action, but a second shot will incapacitate her.

On one hand, this may be about right for a streetlevel campaign. The ones who ought to be able to stand up to the thug can do so; the others are best off doing what their abilities are good for, though most of them are a match for an ordinary man. The telepath will have a hard time in any fight, but fighting isn't what she's designed for. On the other hand, they all have a problem with rifle fire; they can't just single-handedly take down infantry squads, though they could probably be an asset in battle. On the third hand, a case might be made for building them on 75 points, but that would probably mean that they COULD overwhelm normal human beings, which might be less grim and gritty than I want. I think I may be at the margin between "too weak" and "just right."

[Irish Wolf]

Originally Posted by whswhs

* The night stalker runs into trouble against the thug, who's massively stronger and tougher than he is. He can improve his chances by fading into the shadows. In wartime he was a perfect choice for what S.M. Stirling calls "sentry removal," sneaking up and cutting throats—but of course that would make him a wanted murderer in civilian life.

He actually starts to sound a lot like the Shadow. If someone can develop a reliable way for him to strike from the darkness to incapacitate someone without killing them, say a pulp-style blow to the head (in reality it tends to induce things like cranial trauma, but in pulps it just knocks the subject out and maybe leaves them with a tender lump), he becomes quite useful against street-level crime.

And speaking as we were earlier about PTSD, he also sounds like a prime candidate for someone who develops a Batman-style code against killing as a reaction against the terrible things he was forced to do during the war...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Irish Wolf

And speaking as we were earlier about PTSD, he also sounds like a prime candidate for someone who develops a Batman-style code against killing as a reaction against the terrible things he was forced to do during the war...

A very good point. I had been bearing that concern in mind; I see that Absolute Power has optional rules for Sanity and Sanity loss that could fit many characters, and this character in particular. Maybe he could buy a few more skills at the price of buying his Sanity down a bit.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On the third hand, a case might be made for building them on 75 points, but that would probably mean that they COULD overwhelm normal human beings, which might be less grim and gritty than I want. I think I may be at the margin between "too weak" and "just right."

In general you want your mystery men to be strong enough that it makes sense for them to be going out and doing super stuff, and that usually does mean that they can overwhelm a single normal human being; a challenging fight should usually be several normal humans.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think I may be at the margin between "too weak" and "just right."

Sounds like about the right place. How does the system scale with higher-up threats? (Heavy machinegun, small cannon, large cannon, artillery.) You may not care because those threats aren't likely in civilian life post-war, but I'm curious as to what happens to the damage / defense values in this system as you bump the attacks up. Compared to the "standard" attack that is unable to harmIndestructible Man, is facing an attack a step or two higher slightly more concerning; dangerous enough to make players wary, but survivable; likely to turn the super into red mist?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Sounds like about the right place. How does the system scale with higher-up threats? (Heavy machinegun, small cannon, large cannon, artillery.) You may not care because those threats aren't likely in civilian life post-war, but I'm curious as to what happens to the damage / defense values in this system as you bump the attacks up. Compared to the "standard" attack that is unable to harmIndestructible Man, is facing an attack a step or two higher slightly more concerning; dangerous enough to make players wary, but survivable; likely to turn the super into red mist?

Well, being shot with a heavy rifle will inflict damage on him equal to his attacker's Attack Combat Value, comparable to a first blow against an ordinary man. But his Health is also way up there; it's a comparatively minor injury, not enough to exceed his Shock threshold. A heavy shotgun or a heavy machine gun is potent enough, by itself, to penetrate his skin. Multiple hits from the machine gun might get serious enough to incapacitate him. A rotary cannon, which seems about like a Gatling gun, does enough damage so that one hit will exceed his Shock and put him out of action. A Tomahawk missile will take him down past 0 Health, which may kill him immediately; in any case he'll be unconscious and seriously injured. He's not "fragile" in GURPS terms---he doesn't go from fully functional to physically destroyed in an instant.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

. He's not "fragile" in GURPS terms---he doesn't go from fully functional to physically destroyed in an instant.

However, you would get very different results with your listed weapons in Gurps, probably due to more realistic modelling of heavy weapons.

That "rotary cannon" absolutely should be some sort of gatling gun and if as Anthony speculates it's a 30mm anti-tank weapon it'd be doing c. 126 P++(3) with multiple hits certainly possible and the Tomahawk missile with a conventional high explosive warhead could be doing over 1000 pts on a direct hit.

You're probably talking Archetype levels before you get to "not fragile" in the face of that sort of damage.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

However, you would get very different results with your listed weapons in Gurps, probably due to more realistic modelling of heavy weapons.

That "rotary cannon" absolutely should be some sort of gatling gun and if as Anthony speculates it's a 30mm anti-tank weapon it'd be doing c. 126 P++(3) with multiple hits certainly possible and the Tomahawk missile with a conventional high explosive warhead could be doing over 1000 pts on a direct hit.

You're probably talking Archetype levels before you get to "not fragile" in the face of that sort of damage.

Well, I haven't tried building him in GURPS yet. Or in Champions, though I don't have a sense for how realistic Champions is physically.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, I haven't tried building him in GURPS yet. Or in Champions, though I don't have a sense for how realistic Champions is physically.

Champions is quite arbitrary in my memories. While it does attempt to model ong-term v. short term effects of attacks it does so on a basis that appears to be "what looked about right to the designer". It lacks anything like the rigorous "25mm ofRHA equals DR70" standard of Gurps.

It also doesn't separate penetration v. tissue damage in a similar manner to Gurps.