Need Help On Understanding Grappling Attacks

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Dobb

This will be tougher, but let's say a guard dog is attacking one of the said PC.

The guard dog's aim is to bring down the PC. On the guard dog's turn, it charges (or slam? I can never be really clear about this) at the PC and bites him in the leg, to bring him down.

In this scenario, the guard dog (I will be doing this since I am preparing for our next encounter and I need to know what a guard dog and a normal guard will do in this scenario) will roll against its brawling to attack the leg, but is this a grapple then or just a normal bite and hold? Would this be a quick contest to break free or a normal strength?

Let me do Cujo the guard dog vs Joe Genero, round by round.

Cujo is a Large Guard Dog (B 457) with ST 9, DX 11, Brawling-13, Dodge 8, and Move 10.

Joe Genero is a ST 11, DX 11, HT 11 PC with Brawling-12 and Dodge 8.

Cujo's 1st Turn: All-out slam (strong) from 10 yards away. He moves 10 yards and collides with Joe, rolling a 13 and potentially hitting. Joe is Doing Nothing, so he Dodges and retreats with a 12 against an effective 11 and gets hit. Cujo's HP x Move is 90, so he does 1d-1 damage in a slam, +1 for Brawling, +2 for all-out strong, and rolls 5. Joe's HP x Move is 110, so he does 1d and rolls 4. Joe takes 5 damage and a -4 shock penalty, then rolls to resist being knocked down at DX (-4 for the shock). He rolls a 14 and drops to the ground with Cujo standing on him. Cujo takes 4 damage and is also at -4 shock on his next turn.

Joe's 1st Turn: Joe is on his back with a dog on top of him. He decides to evade out of the hex, rolling a quick contest of DX (at -5 for Cujo standing and -4 for shock). Joe rolls a 13 and fails by 11; Cujo rolls a 9 and fails by 2. Joe doesn't go anywhere. (Joe could have tried a punch or grab, but at -3 for lying down and -4 for shock, it wouldn't have worked either.)

Cujo's 2nd Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 9 versus 11 -4 for shock and -1 for half the normal hit location penalty, and misses.

Joe's 2nd Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He misses with a 12.

Cujo's 3rd Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 12 versus 11 with -1 for half the normal hit location penalty, and misses.

Joe's 3rd Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He misses with a 14.

Cujo's 4th Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 18 and critically failing. Table result is an 8, so Cujo must take a Ready maneuver to get himself into a better position next round.

Joe's 4th Turn: Joe takes an all-out (Determined) attack to punch Cujo, rolling against Brawling at +4 for Determined and -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with a 10. Cujo dodges with an 8.

Cujo's 5th Turn: Cujo has to take a Ready to reposition himself instead of exploiting Joe's lack of defenses.

Joe's 5th Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with a 7. Cujo fails to Dodge with a 10. Joe's Brawling damage is 1d-1, and he does another 4 points of damage. Cujo is down to 1 HP, less than 1/3rd his maximum, and is at half Move and Dodge.

Cujo's 6th Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 17 and critically failing. Table result is an 12, so Cujo must take a Ready maneuver to get himself into a better position next round.

Joe's 6th Turn: Joe takes an all-out (Determined) attack to punch Cujo, rolling against Brawling at +4 for Determined and -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with an 8. Cujo critically fails to dodge with a 15 against an effective 4 and falls over. He also takes 1 damage, gets reduced to 0 HP, and blows his HT check to stay conscious with a 17.

Joe pushes Cujo's unconscious body of his, gets up, and heads off to look for medical attention for his cracked ribs.


Huh, that went off-script. The slam should ideally knock the target down, followed by the dog going for a grab. Joe would then want to break free.

Also, the dog would ideally have some skill in Wrestling, which would have made the follow-up to the knockdown go much more in the dog's favor.

[Dobb]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Let me do Cujo the guard dog vs Joe Genero, round by round.

Cujo is a Large Guard Dog (B 457) with ST 9, DX 11, Brawling-13, Dodge 8, and Move 10.

Joe Genero is a ST 11, DX 11, HT 11 PC with Brawling-12 and Dodge 8.

Cujo's 1st Turn: All-out slam (strong) from 10 yards away. He moves 10 yards and collides with Joe, rolling a 13 and potentially hitting. Joe is Doing Nothing, so he Dodges and retreats with a 12 against an effective 11 and gets hit. Cujo's HP x Move is 90, so he does 1d-1 damage in a slam, +1 for Brawling, +2 for all-out strong, and rolls 5. Joe's HP x Move is 110, so he does 1d and rolls 4. Joe takes 5 damage and a -4 shock penalty, then rolls to resist being knocked down at DX (-4 for the shock). He rolls a 14 and drops to the ground with Cujo standing on him. Cujo takes 4 damage and is also at -4 shock on his next turn.

Joe's 1st Turn: Joe is on his back with a dog on top of him. He decides to evade out of the hex, rolling a quick contest of DX (at -5 for Cujo standing and -4 for shock). Joe rolls a 13 and fails by 11; Cujo rolls a 9 and fails by 2. Joe doesn't go anywhere. (Joe could have tried a punch or grab, but at -3 for lying down and -4 for shock, it wouldn't have worked either.)

Cujo's 2nd Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 9 versus 11 -4 for shock and -1 for half the normal hit location penalty, and misses.

Joe's 2nd Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He misses with a 12.

Cujo's 3rd Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 12 versus 11 with -1 for half the normal hit location penalty, and misses.

Joe's 3rd Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He misses with a 14.

Cujo's 4th Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 18 and critically failing. Table result is an 8, so Cujo must take a Ready maneuver to get himself into a better position next round.

Joe's 4th Turn: Joe takes an all-out (Determined) attack to punch Cujo, rolling against Brawling at +4 for Determined and -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with a 10. Cujo dodges with an 8.

Cujo's 5th Turn: Cujo has to take a Ready to reposition himself instead of exploiting Joe's lack of defenses.

Joe's 5th Turn: Joe goes for the punch, rolling against Brawling at -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with a 7. Cujo fails to Dodge with a 10. Joe's Brawling damage is 1d-1, and he does another 4 points of damage. Cujo is down to 1 HP, less than 1/3rd his maximum, and is at half Move and Dodge.

Cujo's 6th Turn: Cujo uses his mouth to grab Joe's arm, rolling a 17 and critically failing. Table result is an 12, so Cujo must take a Ready maneuver to get himself into a better position next round.

Joe's 6th Turn: Joe takes an all-out (Determined) attack to punch Cujo, rolling against Brawling at +4 for Determined and -3 for being prone. He potentially hits with an 8. Cujo critically fails to dodge with a 15 against an effective 4 and falls over. He also takes 1 damage, gets reduced to 0 HP, and blows his HT check to stay conscious with a 17.

Joe pushes Cujo's unconscious body of his, gets up, and heads off to look for medical attention for his cracked ribs.


Huh, that went off-script. The slam should ideally knock the target down, followed by the dog going for a grab. Joe would then want to break free.

Also, the dog would ideally have some skill in Wrestling, which would have made the follow-up to the knockdown go much more in the dog's favor.

Wow, that is a great read-up. That would work well for my PC who is trying to survive, but I am still not sure about the dog's part. Grappling for animals still relies on DX or similar combat skills, right?

If Cujo manages to grab the arm with his mouth, can he repeatedly crush it each turn given Joe failed to break free?

[Dobb]

Originally Posted by Plane

As of martial arts, bites carry a free grapple, so he would roll at -2 to hit the leg.

He could roll to grapple it at just -1 to target the leg but then he can't use brawling (only DX) and wouldn't get bite damage.

Can I please ask for a page ref on this? I am trying to look through MA and can't find it.

[mlangsdorf]

Animals attack at DX unless they have a skill. Guard dogs have Brawling per the basic set, and I think it's pretty reasonable that trained police dogs have Wrestling or something similar - possibly Sumo Wrestling.

By the basic set, the dog can wrench the limb (B 404), though it's not a great move for the dog. But yes, he can do that every turn while Joe fails to break free.

If you're using the extended rules from Martial Arts, it gets trickier. Dogs are probably Born Biters +1 (Martial Arts p 115), and can perform two-handed grapples with their mouths against SM +0 humans. On a successful grapple, in addition to whatever else they're doing, they can worry with their bite, inflicting bite damage as a free action.

If you redo the fight and give Cujo Sumo Wrestling-13 and Born Biter 1, the fight becomes a little nastier. Cujo does 6 damage on the initial slam, not 5, and Joe takes a major wound and is possibly stunned. Cujo would also make the grab on his 3rd turn, and Joe is unlikely to defend with a -3 penalty and no ability to retreat. Joe would take 1d-2 cu damage each turn, minimum of 1 before DR, and Cujo has a 1 in 6 chance of crippling Joe's arm.

[Plane]

In case anyone's wondering, Cujo got full move on an AOA (isntead of the usual half move) due to Martial Arts new rule allowing full move on AOA if it's a Slam (a complement to Slams ignoring the -4 to hit on Move and Attack present in Basic Set)

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Cujo is a Large Guard Dog (B 457) with ST 9, DX 11, Brawling-13, Dodge 8, and Move 10.

Cujo's 1st Turn: All-out slam (strong) from 10 yards away. He moves 10 yards and collides with Joe, rolling a 13 and potentially hitting.

Given the chances of a 13 missing and spoiling your ambush, it might've been wise for him to use a Pounce for +4 to hit, although he'd need to pass a DX roll to stay on feet.

[mlangsdorf]

I'd actually forgotten about Pounce - yeah, +4 to hit and a DX roll to stay on your feet is really great. I'd remembered Flying Tackle, but I figured it was more advantageous for Cujo to stay on his feet because that would make it harder for Joe to evade out the close combat.

Even if Cujo misses, he can come around for another pass, if necessary. Joe's not outrunning a dog with Move 10.