Need Help On Understanding Grappling Attacks

[Dobb]

Hi there, I feel really embarrassed to ask for help regarding this but I am not very good at figuring this out without having someone breaking it down step by step for me.

Say, there are two humans that are gonna spar each other. Player A's job is to tackle Player B until he falls unconscious or to pin him until he gives up.

Given that both players are equal in skill and have no wrestling or judo skills. How will it play out in a combat round? I am reading the rules but I just feel like I can't get the flow correct without having an example being played out.

[RedMattis]

If you want to subdue your opponent you want to either pin them, or if you're fine with leaving them unconscious you could choke them as well. The rules for this are described fairly early in GURPS Campaigns combat chapter.

I'm not sure what you mean with " tackle Player B until he falls unconscious" if you mean "Slams" they aren't really grappling maneuvers and much like punching/kicking the person will likely be dangerously injured at the point where they might fall unconscious (0 hp or less).

In a modern world being reduced to 0 hp (or less) would be the type of injury likely to get you sent into the emergency room at a hospital. Just something to keep in mind.

[Varyon]

I'm going to assume, for simplicity, that Player B is simply using Do Nothing - realistically, he'd be trying to fight back, or at least use All Out Defense, but we'll ignore that here.

First off, Player A needs to establish a grapple. That calls for a roll against DX; on a success, Player B gets a defense - either a Parry (at DX/2+3 if he lacks any currently-usable combat skill, at skill/2+3 otherwise) or a Dodge (at Basic Speed +3; note for a character with average stats, both Parry and Dodge are at 8). Player B can also opt to Retreat when defending, good for a +1 to Parry (+3 with certain skills, such as Karate) or +3 to Dodge.

Once Player A has established a Grapple, Player B is at -4 to DX (and thus -2 to Parry, and potentially -1 to Dodge). If Player A had a grappling skill, he could attempt a blood choke to knock his foe out; without that, he can only strangle, which is not appropriate for a sparring match (honestly, a blood choke is realistically also inappropriate, but GURPS makes those pretty reliably safe). So, he'll want to go for a Pin. He first needs to go for a Takedown - this is a Quick Contest between the highest of ST, DX, and skill for each participant. If Player A wins, Player B falls to the ground, and Player A can opt to maintain the grapple by falling with him. On a tie, nothing happens this round. If Player B wins, Player A loses his grip and falls to the ground; he'll either need to grab Player B's legs and pull him down (not terribly easy, given the penalties for being prone and targeting the legs) and use a couple Change Postures to stand up and then try again (reestablish grapple, attempt a takedown).

Once Player B is on the ground with Player A grappling him, Player A can attempt a Pin, which is a Regular Contest. If Player A wins, he has established a Pin; if he fails, he will have to try again next round. Once Player B has been Pinned, there's nothing he can do unless Player A either lets him go or is forced out of the grapple by someone else.
(EDIT: Actually, Player B can attempt to Break Free once every 10 seconds when pinned, but is at -10 in the Quick Contest to do so)

[Dinadon]

Since neither has any grappling skill, they will both be using DX. I'll assume that both start standing.

The first step is for A to initialise the grapple. This is just an attack based on DX, with B able to defend normally. At this point, A needs to decide whether he wants B to go unconscious or just to pin B before he makes his attack (yes, A could switch from one to the other, but I won't go into that).

Unconcious

1.a. A attempts to grapple B's neck. He uses both arms for +2, and uses the hit location penalties for a grapple.
1.b B defends, which can be any of dodge, block, or parry since A's turn hasn't finished being resolved. We'll just assume B fails here.

2. B's turn, and they are grappled. B attempts to break free using a Quick Contest. A has +5 since they used both arms. Again, we'll assume B fails.

3. A has no grappling skills, so the only option for unconscious is to Choke or Strangle. This is a Quick Contest. This time we'll assume B wins, so nothing happens.

4. B tries to break free again, and fails.

5. A uses Choke or Strangle again. This time A wins, so causes damage, which we'll assume gets past DR

6. B tries to break free again, and fails. Now they also lose 1 FP due to suffocation.

A doesn't have to do anything more now but maintain the grapple. B will either break free or run out of FP.

Pin

1.a. A attempts to grapple B's torso. He uses both arms for +2,.
1.b B defends, which can be any of dodge, block, or parry since A's turn hasn't finished being resolved. We'll just assume B fails here.

2. B's turn, and they are grappled. B attempts to break free using a Quick Contest. A has +5 since they used both arms. Again, we'll assume B fails.

3. A now attempts a Takedown. This is a Quick Contest. This time we'll assume a tie, so nothing happens.

4. B tries to break free again, and fails.

5. A attempts the Takedown again. This time they succeed. B is now prone.

6. B tries to break free again, and fails.

7. A now attempts to pin B. This is a Regular Contest, meaning that margin is not important. We'll assume A wins. B is now Pinned

8. B tries to break free again, but the +5 is replaced with +10. B fails.

A doesn't have to do anything more now than to maintain the pin.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

He uses both arms for +2

Grapples assume both hands as the default. Martial Arts introduces options to grapple with only one hand, but this is penalized (and uses reduced ST when that matters). You get a +2 per additional arm beyond the first two, for characters with three or more arms - Goro (from Mortal Kombat) would be at +4 to grapple if using all four arms, for example.
EDIT: That said, the system isn't exactly going to break if you do this - it just makes grappling a bit easier.

[mlangsdorf]

Expanding on Varyon's concept:

Both PCA and PCB are strong, fast, and fit, with ST 12, DX 12, HT 12, Basic Speed 6, and Basic Move 6. They have no combat skills or other advantages. They are dressed in street clothes for no encumbrance, and have Move 6 and Dodge 9.

PCA's 1st turn: Step and attack to establish the grab, by rolling against DX 12. He rolls an 11 and potentially hits. PCB retreats and dodges, rolling a 10 against an effective 12.

PCB's 1st turn: He retreated away from PCA, so he decides to get fancy and attempts a Feint. He rolls against his DX of 12 and gets a 10, so an MoS of 2, and PCA resists the feint with a roll of 11, and MoS of 1, and will have a -1 penalty to defend against PCB's attacks for 1 turn.

PCA's 2nd turn: Step and attack to establish the grab, by rolling against DX 12. He rolls an 9 and potentially hits. PCB attempts to retreat and dodge, rolling a 14 against an effective 12. PCB is grappled by PCA.

PCB's 2nd turn: Because the retreat defense failed, he's still in PCA's hex, and because he's grappled, he can't leave. He grabs PCA, rolling an 8 against an effective 8 (DX 12 with a -4 penalty). PCA could retreat, but only giving up the grapple, so he just dodges, and lucks out with a 7 against an effective Dodge of 8 (base 9, -1 penalty for the feint).

PCA's 3rd turn: He attempts a takedown, rolling a contest of ST or DX, and rolls a 13 against his ST of 12, failing. PCB also rolls a 13, failing, and nothing happens in a takedown on a tie.

PCB's 3rd turn: Attempts to break free, which is a contest of ST vs ST, but PCA has a +5 for using both hands. Rolls are a 10 for PCB versus a 14 for PCA, and PCA wins and PCB loses.

PCA's 4th turn: He attempts a takedown, rolling a contest of ST or DX, and rolls a 9 against his ST of 12, succeeding by 3. PCB rolls an 11, succeeding by 1, and loses the contest and falls on his back. PCA follows him down to maintain the grapple.

PCB's 4th turn: He makes a desperate strike! He's at -4 for the grapple and -3 for lying down, and rolls a 7 against an effective 5 and misses entirely.

PCA's 5th turn: His foe is grappled and prone, so PCA can for the pin. It's a regular contest of ST. He rolls a 6 and PCB rolls a 12. PCA would have won a Quick Contest, but a regular contest requires a success from one side and a failure from the other, so this is a tie and nothing happens.

PCB's 5th turn: Attempts to break free, which is a contest of ST vs ST, but PCA has a +5 for using both hands. Rolls are an 11 for PCB versus a 14 for PCA, and PCA wins and PCB loses and stays grappled.

Turns 6-12: PCA keeps attempting the pin. PCB keeps alternating unsuccessful break frees with useless strike attempts. Eventually, PCA gets the pin and wins the fight. Technically, PCB can continue to attempt to break free, but PCA has a +10 bonus and PCB can only make 1 roll every 10 turns, so it's fantastically unlikely.

Hope that helps.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Grapples assume both hands as the default. Martial Arts introduces options to grapple with only one hand, but this is penalized (and uses reduced ST when that matters). You get a +2 per additional arm beyond the first two, for characters with three or more arms - Goro (from Mortal Kombat) would be at +4 to grapple if using all four arms, for example.
EDIT: That said, the system isn't exactly going to break if you do this - it just makes grappling a bit easier.

Cleary I had -2 for multitasking.

[Dobb]

Is there a penalty to just one handed grab?

And wow, I am really, really thankful for the wonderful breakdown, it's so much more clearer now!

I need to read them again and again until I get a clearer picture but I am sure I can manage it.

I then however, have another question:

This will be tougher, but let's say a guard dog is attacking one of the said PC.

The guard dog's aim is to bring down the PC. On the guard dog's turn, it charges (or slam? I can never be really clear about this) at the PC and bites him in the leg, to bring him down.

In this scenario, the guard dog (I will be doing this since I am preparing for our next encounter and I need to know what a guard dog and a normal guard will do in this scenario) will roll against its brawling to attack the leg, but is this a grapple then or just a normal bite and hold? Would this be a quick contest to break free or a normal strength?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Dobb

Is there a penalty to just one handed grab?

No, I'm not really sure why but there isn't a large amount of distinction in setting those up, not even in technical grappling. Mostly just different capabilities for pinning (or control points in TG)

On the guard dog's turn, it charges (or slam? I can never be really clear about this) at the PC and bites him in the leg, to bring him down.

Originally Posted by Dobb

In this scenario, the guard dog (I will be doing this since I am preparing for our next encounter and I need to know what a guard dog and a normal guard will do in this scenario) will roll against its brawling to attack the leg, but is this a grapple then or just a normal bite and hold?

As of martial arts, bites carry a free grapple, so he would roll at -2 to hit the leg.

He could roll to grapple it at just -1 to target the leg but then he can't use brawling (only DX) and wouldn't get bite damage.

Originally Posted by Dobb

Would this be a quick contest to break free or a normal strength?

B371 has Break Free use a Quick Contest, though it's changed to an attack/defense scheme if you use Technical Grappling

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Dobb

This will be tougher, but let's say a guard dog is attacking one of the said PC.

The guard dog's aim is to bring down the PC. On the guard dog's turn, it charges (or slam? I can never be really clear about this) at the PC and bites him in the leg, to bring him down.

That could either be a "Takedown" (B370) which is a move available after a successful grapple, and is resolved with a quick contest, but can leave the dog 'taken down' if it loses the contest.
(Or maybe it just loses its grapple. Wording is kind of unclear, imho, but someone will correct me if I'm wrong so it's all good anyway)

Or, the more grueling way of just worrying the leg until it's crippled and the PC has to make rolls against falling down.

But most trained dogs for that purpose are supposed to pin/immobilize rather than maim.
So perhaps something like a modified fright check is appropriate, too. If not going for the takedown route, but takedown probably makes the most sense here.