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Old 07-29-2021, 09:22 PM   #21
Tymathee
 
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
There is no need for apology. And really, you can do what you want. But making broad sweeping statements like that is kind of insulting.
It was your choice to react to that statement as you did. I can say what I say, but how people react to it is up to them. This is evident from other replies, which ranges from annoyance to indifference. You're the only person thus far to take offense to this, literally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Text has no tone. I tend to blunt statements in situations where it seems like broad sweeping statements are made. So if you took it another way, well, sorry.
The bolded is a logical fallacy (and frankly, it is in general) given the statement that directly follows it. Writing is only likely to be toneless if you suffer from Autistic Spectrum Disorder because you lack the "hard empathy" to intelligently identify emotions within common forms of communication, including writing.
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
It was your choice to react to that statement as you did. I can say what I say, but how people react to it is up to them. This is evident from other replies, which ranges from annoyance to indifference. You're the only person thus far to take offense to this, literally.



The bolded is a logical fallacy (and frankly, it is in general) given the statement that directly follows it. Writing is only likely to be toneless if you suffer from Autistic Spectrum Disorder because you lack the "hard empathy" to intelligently identify emotions within common forms of communication, including writing.
I don't understand. I thought that punctuation made the tone. For example. STOP!
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Old 07-29-2021, 11:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

I might make some closing statements, and then this thread really needs to return to on topic discussion. Although seemingly tangential, it is at least somewhat pertinent to the discussion of a player's character to discuss the psychology of the player behind said character.

My life story is very real. Should anyone truly doubt the legitimacy of my account, I can provide provide what documentation I have to prove the legitimacy of my Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and its causes. I can make photo copies of the documentation I have on hand and request copies of further documentation from the mental health professionals I am working with. I truly don't mind being so transparent. What about police records documenting these events? I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to provide those, as police involvement has sadly been not something that was available to me. For much of my life, I was under further threat of sociopathic abuse from my brother and the threat of being completely disowned by my own mother. My recent statements on this forum, my recent confidential confiding with my community college, and my very recent work with mental health professionals has been the first time in my life that I've finally told this story.

Sociopathy, essentially, is a hereditary genetic mutation that may or may not be influenced/triggered by environmental factors. Approximately 1 out of every 100 people suffer from the condition. I have reason to believe, prior to what I know to have been a traumatic brain damage and excessive substance abuse, that my older brother was a sociopath. Why, Tymathee, you might say, anyone can commit incestuous sexual abuse against a younger sibling, laugh with delight as they smash kittens to death, and repeatedly commit acts of violence just short of murder... and still not be a sociopath. Yes, technically you'd be correct. However, let us invoke some common sense. Such a person could very likely be a sociopath given the kind of behavior exhibited.

The existential horror that I have to live with, besides my crippling PTSD, is that I likely am a carrier of this genetic mutation. I'm ethically and likely morally obligated to never have biological children, and if I'm public with this information about me... I'll likely suffer to what amounts to a Social Stigma. People may vary well see me as a genuine liability to society... and, perhaps more horrifying, they shall always have the itching suspicion that I'm one of them. If nothing else, I'm likely to be genetically predisposed to having at least some antisocial features myself.

So, Tymathee, why be so transparent? Why potentially put yourself at risk of such prejudice?

Because, to a certain extent, I'm tired of essentially living with what amounts to a false persona, a alter ego of normalcy, my entire life. This is immense pressure for a young adult to deal with. Honestly, I don't know what I'm going to do moving forward, or how much more truly public I want to go with my life story.

In a way, Bessarion is just one of the vehicles for a fleeting escape from an all too dark reality. Sometimes, I just want to put aside the thoughts that heavily burden my mind and just roll some dice and roleplay instead.
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Old 07-30-2021, 12:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Text has no tone.
That's simply not true. Text, when crafted into sentences to form a narrative, most certainly can have tone. It is affected by cultural norms, agreed or accepted understandings of certain words or combinations, local idiom, and more.

Tone can be set through the specific language, the content, the plot, the psychology of the characters, political and personal context, and more.

"For sure" and "OK" essentially mean the same thing, but they convey it differently. "Whatever" certainly has cultural variations and expectations when it's used.

Various slang or vulgar words convey different tones depending on their context or cultural history.

The suggestion (made by another) that punctuation is required to set tone is simply wrong, but perhaps the result (in some cases) of the modern influx of emojis to ensure the tone is understood. And that's a feature of writing on the internet. When I first encountered the 'net in '91, (and BBSs before that), it was clear that most people didn't spend too much time to craft their messages, and because of the instant expansion of access to different cultures, backgrounds, language skills, and so on, it was easy for people to misread the intent of a writer who wasn't interested in polishing the text, just sending it. So then, the importance of emojis arose. A old friend who frequented one particular FIDOnet echo used to sign off from his point with "Deem smilies included". A lawyer with an androgynous name who was masterful with language, and mostly taking the **** with the sign off.

That said, punctuation does come into it. Along with word choice, personal pronouns, consistency, empathy, and honesty.

So, yeah, text can have tone but we can't control how someone receives it. We can attempt to present it with clarity, and the best writers will most often achieve that. The rest of us? Can be hit and miss.
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Old 07-30-2021, 02:26 AM   #25
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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Originally Posted by Farmer View Post
*snip*

So, yeah, text can have tone but we can't control how someone receives it. We can attempt to present it with clarity, and the best writers will most often achieve that. The rest of us? Can be hit and miss.
Tone is certainly more easily conveyed via face to face communication. Online forum messaging really muddles it... and consequently, how capable people are of being empathetic to each other.

When you're a capital C Callous person like me, although perhaps I'm being too cynical with my own self-awareness, is only made worse in faceless online communication. Circumventing said callousness is usually better done face to face, as you have a clear reading of the other person's "tone" and other identifiers of their emotional state, etc., so you can make better decisions in how you respectfully communicate with others. Realistically speaking, people who'd qualify for the Callous Disadvantage have at least some means of maintaining positive relationships in their lives if they want to remain functional members of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Characters, pg. 125
You are merciless, if not cruel. You can decipher others’ emotions, but you do so only to manipulate them – you don’t care about their feelings or pain.
Sure, that can be true of me. I don't think I'm quite so malicious though... not because I really care about people's feelings or their pain, but because of intelligent practicality, and in the bigger picture of my own life I just want some semblance of happiness, and treating others with what respect you're capable of giving plays a part in that. Realistically speaking you can't live your whole life trampling over other people's all too fragile feelings. So you develop methods to better your own means of "empathizing". Psychology (Cold Reading) (or better known within the RAW as Psychology (Applied)) can help you get a better read on people... which some might use as further reason to accuse you of being manipulative, but when I analyze people I'd like to think I'm doing so so that I'm less prone to saying something wholly insensitive.

Unfortunately, the cutoff point for neuroplasticity has been passed, as I've aged past the point where my mind is malleable enough to undue how my personality is hardcoded. I'd like to be optimistic and say this wasn't something I was necessarily born with (but evidence suggest otherwise. Two parents with notably antisocial-leaning personalities are likely to yield children with antisocial-leaning personalities)... as perhaps my "enviormental factors" played a strong role in how I became the person I am now. Burned once, burned twice, burned thrice... your heart figuratively wrenched from your chest and thrown to the ground and shattered into so many fine pieces of glass by the very people who were supposed to be the ones who truly cherished you. The world, too, violates you over and over again. Eventually you just become so jaded that you could never completely trust anyone to respect your own feelings and wellbeing.

Well, when it comes to Bessarion, it's right there on his character sheet, "Code of Honor (Adventurer's) [-15]". As a player I'm contractually obligated to roleplay my character as a person who honors their word, looks out for their adventuring companions, and even goes a step above that to ensure the safety and wellbeing of NPCs hired on or otherwise accompanying the party. If I don't, the GM is free to penalize me for it. That's no fun, so better to be a responsible player and do as I'm meant to as written on the character sheet.
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"Mom's resentful that she has to work so hard, which obscures her guilt about actually wanting to work so hard. Dad's guilty about being less driven than mom, but thinks it's wrong to feel that way, so he hides behind a smokescreen of cluelessness. Quinn wears superficiality like a suit of armor, because she's afraid of looking inside and finding absolutely nothing. And I'm so defendant that I actively work to make people dislike me so I won't feel bad when they do. Can I go now?" - Daria Morgendorffer

Last edited by Tymathee; 07-30-2021 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 07-31-2021, 11:36 AM   #26
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

I like the idea that both your characters are evil “bad guys”. For me violence is like a chain, it keeps growing and growing, and as longer it is the harder it hurts harder when it hurts. With more links, the chance of a “kinder (weak)” link to break the repeating cycle of violence and pain could happen.

Maybe if your characters had endured pain/violence, overcame it and with that knowledge decided to keep the chain growing. Maybe that way it could be helpful in overcoming/understanding past pains.
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Old 08-01-2021, 01:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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Originally Posted by vicious Violence View Post
I like the idea that both your characters are evil “bad guys”. For me violence is like a chain, it keeps growing and growing, and as longer it is the harder it hurts harder when it hurts. With more links, the chance of a “kinder (weak)” link to break the repeating cycle of violence and pain could happen.

Maybe if your characters had endured pain/violence, overcame it and with that knowledge decided to keep the chain growing. Maybe that way it could be helpful in overcoming/understanding past pains.
I suppose Bessarion could be seen as a "bad guy".

Evil? Perhaps. Morality is a very esoteric topic, so nuanced that no one could really be the true arbiter of all that is moral or immoral (... if you believe in a singular, omnipotent higher power, who crafts humanity in their image... one has to raise the question, is such a deity a sociopath? If such a condition is almost certainly entirely born from genetics, then we have our conclusive answer there).

I've discussed before in another thread on how I visualize morality as a complex Venn Diagram; every single person alive is a individual circle within the diagram, with overlaps representing commonality of morals. Perhaps where the circles don't overlap is where a differing of opinions is and where we see the lack of objectivity of human morality.

I've spent a lot of my free time studying the Dark Triad, and the empathetically challenged in general, as a means of understanding how "evil" works within our own reality and perhaps to even better understand myself.

When it comes to making characters, I like to incorporate significant character flaws into how I conceptualize them. Some might think of me as a edgy contrarian, but honestly I think it makes for better characters with greater potential for positive character development over the course of a campaign. If your character is Mister Wholesome-Goody Two Shoes, and ends the campaign as Mister Wholesome-Goody Two Shoes, you likely didn't have much positive alteration of character over the course of the campaign. I suppose such a character could have negative character development instead... what happens to them that taints the goodness within them. I'd imagine most people wouldn't like to see good people turn bad though, but ymmv.

I think, overall, Bessarion has characteristics that would put him at odds with the game world. In some ways, he wants to uphold the more conservative beliefs of the now dated traditional Faun culture, but likely simultaneously is at least somewhat cognizant of the larger society he is at odds with. He has personality flaws, some of which are perhaps inherent to the Faun species, that he must deal with and perhaps overcome.

Overall, I'd think it'd be more accurate to label him as a "anti-hero" rather than outright "evil bad guy".
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Old 08-01-2021, 07:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I suppose Bessarion could be seen as a "bad guy".

Evil? Perhaps. Morality is a very esoteric topic, so nuanced that no one could really be the true arbiter of all that is moral or immoral (... if you believe in a singular, omnipotent higher power, who crafts humanity in their image... one has to raise the question, is such a deity a sociopath? If such a condition is almost certainly entirely born from genetics, then we have our conclusive answer there).

I've discussed before in another thread on how I visualize morality as a complex Venn Diagram; every single person alive is a individual circle within the diagram, with overlaps representing commonality of morals. Perhaps where the circles don't overlap is where a differing of opinions is and where we see the lack of objectivity of human morality.

I've spent a lot of my free time studying the Dark Triad, and the empathetically challenged in general, as a means of understanding how "evil" works within our own reality and perhaps to even better understand myself.

When it comes to making characters, I like to incorporate significant character flaws into how I conceptualize them. Some might think of me as a edgy contrarian, but honestly I think it makes for better characters with greater potential for positive character development over the course of a campaign. If your character is Mister Wholesome-Goody Two Shoes, and ends the campaign as Mister Wholesome-Goody Two Shoes, you likely didn't have much positive alteration of character over the course of the campaign. I suppose such a character could have negative character development instead... what happens to them that taints the goodness within them. I'd imagine most people wouldn't like to see good people turn bad though, but ymmv.

I think, overall, Bessarion has characteristics that would put him at odds with the game world. In some ways, he wants to uphold the more conservative beliefs of the now dated traditional Faun culture, but likely simultaneously is at least somewhat cognizant of the larger society he is at odds with. He has personality flaws, some of which are perhaps inherent to the Faun species, that he must deal with and perhaps overcome.

Overall, I'd think it'd be more accurate to label him as a "anti-hero" rather than outright "evil bad guy".
In my point of view, evil is only evil if you lose. Your characters are a force to be reckoned with, just be sure there is no one left to judge them as "evil".
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Old 08-01-2021, 09:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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In my point of view, evil is only evil if you lose. Your characters are a force to be reckoned with, just be sure there is no one left to judge them as "evil".
That's certainly one way to look at it. Some might say the winners write the history books, for better or for worse.

"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women!" - Conan the Barbarian
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"Mom's resentful that she has to work so hard, which obscures her guilt about actually wanting to work so hard. Dad's guilty about being less driven than mom, but thinks it's wrong to feel that way, so he hides behind a smokescreen of cluelessness. Quinn wears superficiality like a suit of armor, because she's afraid of looking inside and finding absolutely nothing. And I'm so defendant that I actively work to make people dislike me so I won't feel bad when they do. Can I go now?" - Daria Morgendorffer

Last edited by Tymathee; 08-01-2021 at 09:50 PM. Reason: Barbarism!
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: [DF] Faun Barbarian - Bessarion

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Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
The Lecherousness trait has some strongly implied bicuriosity though...
Um... it does? In what way? I guess you must be talking about this line:

Quote:
Note that you are likely to change your standards of attractiveness if no truly attractive members of the appropriate sex are available!
But in context, it seems extremely clear that that's only referring to standards of attractiveness, not the "appropriate sex" part.
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