[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

[Tymathee]

I'd also say that the 1 to 20 ratio doesn't make sense, at least in the context of valuing the ER.

Is Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 actually needing to be worth [504]? I highly doubt that.

[Tymathee]

Really, not having the option of a Power Item really makes that -80% really worth -80%. Wizards have the option of starting the game with a Power Item, and may in play at get a Power Item of greater value that may store an even higher amount of energy. They just have to cough up the cash.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

I'd also say that the 1 to 20 ratio doesn't make sense, at least in the context of valuing the ER.

Is Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 actually needing to be worth [504]? I highly doubt that.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

I said that instead of pricing your ER at [1] by level, I would estimate a cost of [1.5].
So, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 [36]

I never suggested [504] ?

Edit : ok, I understand. You are speaking of the limitation on perk number.
I see your point, but I just mean that limitation was likely a further -10% or -20% to the cost of ER, I never suggested anything else.

But I didn't accounted for Paut in a DF setting, so perhaps a little less is justified.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Really, not having the option of a Power Item really makes that -80% really worth -80%. Wizards have the option of starting the game with a Power Item, and may in play at get a Power Item of greater value that may store an even higher amount of energy. They just have to cough up the cash.

Originally Posted by Tymathee

There's the fact that Paut is something you can likely buy at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in Town, a guaranteed Power Item (Wizards get this right at character creation!) you can have right from the start that you can top off any time you stop at Town... external sources for energy are highly ubiquitous to DF. The rules for Can't Use External Energy accommodate these kinds of considerations when it comes to increasing the value of the modifier. You're argument against the -80% on Magery would make more sense if it took into consideration the genre assumptions of DF.

No paut is a limitation on ER, not on magery.

Your game, your rules, but I cannot see how being denied access to an energy item would be worth -65% of the cost of magery.

Especially since you can leverage this -80% cost of magery to get higher skill level in spells cheaply so you can cast many of them for [0], negating the limitation in the first place ...

I would enforce the thaumatology costing myself, but YMMV.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I have no idea what you are saying here.

I said that instead of pricing your ER at [1] by level, I would estimate a cost of [1.5].
So, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 [36]

I never suggested [504] ?

But I didn't accounted for Paut in a DF setting, so perhaps a little less is justified.

Also take note of the Power Item, pg. 28 of DF's Adventurers. High cost treasure is really likely in DF (is that not large reason to go dungeon delving?), and all they have to do is take the item to town to upgrade and pay the expenses for imbuing it with the energy.

I arrived at [504] because requiring 20 points in spells can roughly translate to requiring a [20] Unusual Background per point of magic perks. The rule appears less there for balance and more there to give plausible reason for acquiring perks; more magical education, more plausibility of more magic perks.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

I arrived at [504] because requiring 20 points in spells can roughly translate to requiring a [20] Unusual Background per point of magic perks. The rule appears less there for balance and more there to give plausible reason for acquiring perks; more magical education, more plausibility of more magic perks.

It is closer to a pact limitation, you must have X to buy Y.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

No paut is a limitation on ER, not on magery.

Your game, your rules, but I cannot see how being denied access to an energy item would be worth -65% of the cost of magery.

Especially since you can leverage this -80% cost of magery to get higher skill level in spells cheaply so you can cast many of them for [0], negating the limitation in the first place ...

I would enforce the thaumatology costing myself, but YMMV.

Originally Posted by GURPS Thaumatology, pg. 23

You must tap your own inner resources to work magic; you can’t use Powerstones, paut (p. 52), energy-granting sacrifices (p. 58), or anything similar for additional energy.

Says it right there.

Raising skill to mitigate energy costs is baked into the system. I fail to see a problem in what's a intended feature.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Thaumatology p23

If the campaign makes heavy use of external energy sources – for example, if large Powerstones are easily available or wizards frequently cast Draw Power on high- tech electrical supplies – the GM may wish to increase the limitation
value. It may be open to abuse if it’s made too large, however.

I guess you can say the energy item is on the same category than a large powerstone, if nowhere near industrial mana.

But note the warning about "too large" a limitation.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I guess you can say the energy item is on the same category than a large powerstone, if nowhere near industrial mana.

But note the warning about "too large" a limitation.

Well, DF's Power Item rules will inevitably yield Power Items with large energy reserves eventually. Unless the GM wants to actively bottleneck the flow of cash... which might yield the extreme opposite of Monty Hauling, and that's probably not a good idea.

[Tymathee]

On energy costs, there's lots of ways that will eventually cost you a lot of energy to get the results you want out of spells... Low Mana Zone, Area Spell costs... pumping energy into Missile Spells... the energy expenses can add up quickly in a game.

Also, my Designer's Notes highly suggest what amounts to "training expenses and then some" (DF even reccomends this as an option for justifying character advancement with points).

Basically, in play:

For LER (BM), pay a minimum of $500 in ritual trappings and conduct a ritualistic act of Evil. E.g. Buy some nice ceromonial candles, some high art chalk, a virgin sacrifice... then, you need to find a time and place where you're not going to get lynched by wholesome society. Probably enlist the aid of your companions for the endeavor, or pay hirelings to help. Do the deed, pay the character point, and tada! The forces of Evil have deemed you worthy of more energy reserve!

Magery with the associated -80% limitation would require the same scheme but a $1000 minimum of ritual trappings.

GM is certainly welcome to adjust these numbers as they please.

Basically, at the superficial surface level, the point costs may seem sus. Oswald is starting with a level of Magery a regular Wizard could vary well start with at char gen, and the energy he has to work with is a lot less than what a Wizard gets from the start. They have that FP, HP to burn, and their starting Power Item, plus Paut they want with starting cash.