Partial Combat Reflexes

pgb · 04-09-2020, 11:21 AM

I don't want to re-open the debate about pricing of Combat Reflexes (CR) as such; but I am interested in allowing limited versions or subset of CR, while maintaining the RAW cost for full CR. My main interest currently, given a race that has full CR on its template, is to retain flavour for members of that race who lack full CR, because they are are young, inexperienced, frail, disabled or whatever, without just saying they have "No CR [-15]". (Of course, completely separate traits can also address this, e.g. lower DX or Basic Speed, but still...)

So that requires thinking about costs for stand-alone parts of CR.

For the bonus to Active Defenses, which would normally be represented as Enhanced Defences, obviously that doesn't work off-the-shelf, because Enhanced Dodge costs 15 points. As a way round that, how about a limitation on (at most one level of) Enhanced Defenses: Can't Have Combat Reflexes, -40%. (An alternative name would be Doesn't Stack with CR, if that's clearer.) This is inspired by the Can't Wear Armor limitation on DR (which I know can be controversial, but for reasons which don't carry over to this case, I think). So that would suggest:

Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Dodge Only, -40%) [9] or equivalently
Enhanced Dodge (Can't Have Combat Reflexes, -40%) [9].

Does that seem reasonable? Is it a good way to think about it? Preferences between the two ways of expressing it? Of course, there's no reason why is HAS to be -40%.

Analogously, that would suggest:
Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Block (Cloak or Shield) Only, -40%) [3]
Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Parry (All) Only, -40%) [6]
etc. Does that seem fair?

That would still make taking multiple types of Enhanced Defenses very expensive; but I don't really envisage that arising often in the context I have in mind. Is there a generic rule anywhere for costing multiple "parts" of a trait like this? e.g. is there an official way to cost DR that covers multiple hit locations, but not all? What would be a reasonable price for Combat Reflexes (Active Defense Bonus Only)? Maybe [12]?

Less immediately relevant to what I'm thinking about, but generically of interest: what about costs for other components? Again, I'm not at all interested in getting the costs to add up to the costs of CR (impossible!); if a character has multiple "bits" of CR, they can either pay [12] say or just take the whole thing.

The +1 to Fast-Draw (All) can be a new advantage, priced at [2] (from pB118); the "can't take CR" can be a feature, as it is unlikely to alter the cost.

The +2 to Fright Checks is Fearlessness 2 with limitations Fright Checks only and Doesn't Stack with CR, which plausibly give -25% for [3].

The "never freeze" and +6 on IQ rolls to wake up or recover from surprise or mental stun are a bit harder to model. I suppose they are, respectively, Immunity and Resistant to particular mental threats, but we have few examples of mental categories for Resistant, so they are hard to price; the cheapest Immunity is [5], which doesn't seem unreasonable.

An aside: there doesn't seem to be an entry for Resistant in the Advantage of the Week series. Not complaining, just curious. I'm interested in what other categories exist for it, for this and other purposes.

Paul.

AlexanderHowl · 04-09-2020, 12:09 PM

In my mind, the issue is not that CR is too cheap, it is that everything else is so expensive. I would not mind having a leveled CR, with each level adding +2 to Fright Checks, +1 to Fast-Draw, +1 to Active Defenses, etc. One level would only be appropriate for a realistic campaign, but three levels would be appropriate for a cinematic campaign.

ETS would be a separate 30 CP advantage that would not include CR, would require three levels of CR to purchase, and would negate CR benefits for opponents without ETS (along with its other effects). For example, a cinematic martial artist with CR 3 would normal gain +6 to Fright Checks, +3 to Fast-Draw, and +3 to Active Defense against most opponents. Against an opponent with CR 3 and ETS though, they would have none of those bonuses unless they also had ETS, and their opponent would still have their bonuses against them. Basic Speed and Enhanced Defense would still be worthwhile because they are immune to the effects of ETS.

Anthony · 04-09-2020, 01:09 PM

In general I don't think any of the features other than surprise resistance are worth breaking out, so I'd just have:

Resistant to Surprise [1/level, max 6 levels]
Each level of this advantage gives +1 to rolls to recover from mental stun, and reduces the number of turns spent stunned in a Total Surprise situation by 1. Not cumulative with combat reflexes; you may buy combat reflexes in play by paying the difference in cost.

Jareth Valar · 04-09-2020, 03:59 PM

In the game I'm playing in, we altered it as well, however our's is rather simple.

All we did was remove the Defense bonus, drop it to 10 points, rename it Combat Veteran and allow level one of Enhanced Defenses to be purchased.

This works well for us, as the game prohibits Cinematic Skills/Techniques/Advantages, etc. (which Enhanced Defenses is listed as such).

04-09-2020, 11:21 AM	#1
pgb Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: UK	Partial Combat Reflexes I don't want to re-open the debate about pricing of Combat Reflexes (CR) as such; but I am interested in allowing limited versions or subset of CR, while maintaining the RAW cost for full CR. My main interest currently, given a race that has full CR on its template, is to retain flavour for members of that race who lack full CR, because they are are young, inexperienced, frail, disabled or whatever, without just saying they have "No CR [-15]". (Of course, completely separate traits can also address this, e.g. lower DX or Basic Speed, but still...) So that requires thinking about costs for stand-alone parts of CR. For the bonus to Active Defenses, which would normally be represented as Enhanced Defences, obviously that doesn't work off-the-shelf, because Enhanced Dodge costs 15 points. As a way round that, how about a limitation on (at most one level of) Enhanced Defenses: Can't Have Combat Reflexes, -40%. (An alternative name would be Doesn't Stack with CR, if that's clearer.) This is inspired by the Can't Wear Armor limitation on DR (which I know can be controversial, but for reasons which don't carry over to this case, I think). So that would suggest: Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Dodge Only, -40%) [9] or equivalently Enhanced Dodge (Can't Have Combat Reflexes, -40%) [9]. Does that seem reasonable? Is it a good way to think about it? Preferences between the two ways of expressing it? Of course, there's no reason why is HAS to be -40%. Analogously, that would suggest: Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Block (Cloak or Shield) Only, -40%) [3] Combat Reflexes (Enhanced Parry (All) Only, -40%) [6] etc. Does that seem fair? That would still make taking multiple types of Enhanced Defenses very expensive; but I don't really envisage that arising often in the context I have in mind. Is there a generic rule anywhere for costing multiple "parts" of a trait like this? e.g. is there an official way to cost DR that covers multiple hit locations, but not all? What would be a reasonable price for Combat Reflexes (Active Defense Bonus Only)? Maybe [12]? Less immediately relevant to what I'm thinking about, but generically of interest: what about costs for other components? Again, I'm not at all interested in getting the costs to add up to the costs of CR (impossible!); if a character has multiple "bits" of CR, they can either pay [12] say or just take the whole thing. The +1 to Fast-Draw (All) can be a new advantage, priced at [2] (from pB118); the "can't take CR" can be a feature, as it is unlikely to alter the cost. The +2 to Fright Checks is Fearlessness 2 with limitations Fright Checks only and Doesn't Stack with CR, which plausibly give -25% for [3]. The "never freeze" and +6 on IQ rolls to wake up or recover from surprise or mental stun are a bit harder to model. I suppose they are, respectively, Immunity and Resistant to particular mental threats, but we have few examples of mental categories for Resistant, so they are hard to price; the cheapest Immunity is [5], which doesn't seem unreasonable. An aside: there doesn't seem to be an entry for Resistant in the Advantage of the Week series. Not complaining, just curious. I'm interested in what other categories exist for it, for this and other purposes. Paul.

04-09-2020, 12:09 PM	#2
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Partial Combat Reflexes In my mind, the issue is not that CR is too cheap, it is that everything else is so expensive. I would not mind having a leveled CR, with each level adding +2 to Fright Checks, +1 to Fast-Draw, +1 to Active Defenses, etc. One level would only be appropriate for a realistic campaign, but three levels would be appropriate for a cinematic campaign. ETS would be a separate 30 CP advantage that would not include CR, would require three levels of CR to purchase, and would negate CR benefits for opponents without ETS (along with its other effects). For example, a cinematic martial artist with CR 3 would normal gain +6 to Fright Checks, +3 to Fast-Draw, and +3 to Active Defense against most opponents. Against an opponent with CR 3 and ETS though, they would have none of those bonuses unless they also had ETS, and their opponent would still have their bonuses against them. Basic Speed and Enhanced Defense would still be worthwhile because they are immune to the effects of ETS.

04-09-2020, 01:09 PM	#3
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Partial Combat Reflexes In general I don't think any of the features other than surprise resistance are worth breaking out, so I'd just have: Resistant to Surprise [1/level, max 6 levels] Each level of this advantage gives +1 to rolls to recover from mental stun, and reduces the number of turns spent stunned in a Total Surprise situation by 1. Not cumulative with combat reflexes; you may buy combat reflexes in play by paying the difference in cost. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

04-09-2020, 03:59 PM	#4
Jareth Valar Join Date: Aug 2013	Re: Partial Combat Reflexes In the game I'm playing in, we altered it as well, however our's is rather simple. All we did was remove the Defense bonus, drop it to 10 points, rename it Combat Veteran and allow level one of Enhanced Defenses to be purchased. This works well for us, as the game prohibits Cinematic Skills/Techniques/Advantages, etc. (which Enhanced Defenses is listed as such).