Arm Lock Damage

[GodBeastX]

Had a player inflict arm lock damage, then release the guy, then move to another target and attack them.

This seems odd to me. Arm Lock is free damage, releasing is free attack. BUt I can't imagine someone wrenching a guys arm and letting him go to unleash a full attack on someone else.

This legit?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

I'll let Doug respond with how TG handles it. But in the basic rules, yes, technically, it's a pair of free actions. From my own experience, however, it's not something you can do instantly. You'd be well within a reality check to say it counts as a free action as long as you aren't letting go during your turn to do something else; that is, you can let go at the end of your other actions.

That way, you can arm lock, inflict damage as a free action while doing something else (a close combat attack, readying a weapon, whatever), and then let go, but not inflict damage, then let go, then do something else.

By the RAW he's right as far as I know, but yeah, it's quite reasonable to say it's contingent on you not letting go and then doing something else. By that logic it's a free action, but not an instant action.

[Varyon]

It seems odd, but keep in mind Arm Lock (and similar) require you to maintain the lock for a full round before getting the free damage attempt. Think of it as the damage being done throughout the second between the character applying the lock and getting his next turn. So, he's grappling with some guy, gets his arm in a lock and more-or-less immediately breaks it, then lets go to attack the next guy.

EDIT: Peter's response was actually what I was originally thinking made the most sense, but once I checked TG (don't have MA yet) and saw that a Joint Lock required you to maintain the lock for a full round before getting the damage attempt, I felt the way it works (damage as free action, let go, do something else) isn't too bad. I think it could really go either way.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I'll let Doug respond with how TG handles it. But in the basic rules, yes, technically, it's a pair of free actions. From my own experience, however, it's not something you can do instantly. You'd be well within a reality check to say it counts as a free action as long as you aren't letting go during your turn to do something else; that is, you can let go at the end of your other actions.

That way, you can arm lock, inflict damage as a free action while doing something else (a close combat attack, readying a weapon, whatever), and then let go, but not inflict damage, then let go, then do something else.

By the RAW he's right as far as I know, but yeah, it's quite reasonable to say it's contingent on you not letting go and then doing something else. By that logic it's a free action, but not an instant action.

TG doesn't handle letting go any differently than RAW. Technically, what happened was perfectly legit.

[GodBeastX]

But you can all out grapple, then arm lock... that doesn't require you to have it a full round. Or is that not allowed?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

But you can all out grapple, then arm lock... that doesn't require you to have it a full round. Or is that not allowed?

Originally Posted by MA: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems, page 9, Defendu Combinations

Handcuff Hold: Judo Grapple/Arm + Judo Arm Lock +
Judo Throw/Torso. The Arm Lock is maintained and, once
on the ground, followed by Handcuffing.

The character might want to check this out. No need for AoA.

[GodBeastX]

I think I'm just going to enforce a rule you need an Arm Lock for a full round. RAW it's allowed, but I've been to enough of my buddy's martial arts grappling tournaments to know I never saw an arm snap instantly (I saw his arm snap... holy ****, shoulda tapped out!)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I think I'm just going to enforce a rule you need an Arm Lock for a full round. RAW it's allowed, but I've been to enough of my buddy's martial arts grappling tournaments to know I never saw an arm snap instantly (I saw his arm snap... holy ****, shoulda tapped out!)

It seems extremely unlikely that you'd snap an arm instantly with basic Arm Lock damage unless you're engaged in a gross mismatch. It's just margin of victory in a quick contest.

If you want to do really horrifying limb-maiming, you want a throw from the lock.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It seems extremely unlikely that you'd snap an arm instantly with basic Arm Lock damage unless you're engaged in a gross mismatch. It's just margin of victory in a quick contest.

If you want to do really horrifying limb-maiming, you want a throw from the lock.

You underestimate the power of my players to know exactly what they're doing. The player in question has Arm Lock technique at 19 (Skill+4) and the person they did this to had 13 strength and 13 HT.

THEN, they have pressure secrets which does this:

You can also use this ability with
locks and similar grappling attacks.
This represents knowledge of exactly
where to apply pressure to tear or
sprain joints and ligaments. After
applying the lock, make a Pressure
Secrets roll. On a success, double the
damage, shock, or harmful effects of
the lock for that turn.

They won by a margin of 9 on the roll, which became 18 for damage sake. Yes, the arm snaps. I'm not bothered by this too much, except they did that then wanted to release the guy and pressure secrets someone else's face in and I'm like, "Wait, you snap an arm instantly then pounce on someone else? That seems unlikely... let me go get an opinion and for now, I'm disallowing it."

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

You underestimate the power of my players to know exactly what they're doing. The player in question has Arm Lock technique at 19 (Skill+4) and the person they did this to had 13 strength and 13 HT.

I don't have Martial Arts at my fingertips, but in Technical Grappling the attacker can only use trained ST in the basic lock damage contest, not skill or technique.

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

THEN, they have pressure secrets which does this:



They won by a margin of 9 on the roll, which became 18 for damage sake. Yes, the arm snaps. I'm not bothered by this too much, except they did that then wanted to release the guy and pressure secrets someone else's face in and I'm like, "Wait, you snap an arm instantly then pounce on someone else? That seems unlikely... let me go get an opinion and for now, I'm disallowing it."

Pressure secrets, of course, might do it anyway.

I'd venture that you've never seen Pressure Secrets used in a real martial arts tournament, though. It's a completely non-realistic skill.