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Old 03-26-2021, 05:47 PM   #21
Greg 1
 
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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He wants the gods to overlap, though and the decans really don't.
This is it. My default with gods is to divide aspects of reality neatly among members of a pantheon.

In this setting, though, it's vital that the god overlap and are squabbling and jostling for position over the competition. There's been an apocalypse and the universe is sorting out the new order.
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Old 03-27-2021, 07:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

I have a similar project and, honestly, don't really know what I'm doing but if it helps...

Summary; if you use Decans or Partial Decans to represent the elements of the Deities' portfolio rather than the Deities themselves you can have the tension and overlap you want and a sensible framework for the magic.

The magic in my stories is most similar to Book (as opposed to Path) ritual magic. Divine magic is like Book (Effect Shaping) while Arcane/Occult magic is like Book (Energy Accumulating). Decanic modifiers work, I think, if the Decans represent the 'Domains' or 'Elements' in a deity's Portfolio rather than the deity itself.

In this way the deities in (or between) pantheons can have tension or friction because their portfolio's overlap and the "Power" of a deity vs. another (which is to say; the utility of a god to it's worshipers) can also be a point of contention because of the way Decanic modifiers work to Ritual magic.

It becomes a bit of (fun!) math homework but the number of domains/Paths/elements that can be in a deity's portfolio are easy to fit in as long as your astrology is based on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_composite_number like 360... anyhow didn't mean to digress into my own project.
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Old 03-27-2021, 08:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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He wants the gods to overlap, though and the decans really don't.
Then try realms. The realm of Zeus would cover weather, authority, rulership, democracy, and winged life forms. The realm of Demeter would cover food, crops, plant, Animal and human fertility, rebirth, and the seasons. Each pantheon's realms would be different. Odin, Zeus, Amon-Ra, Indra, the August Elder of Jade, and Nuada of the Silver Hand, are all "King of the Gods," but their realms are radically different.
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Old 03-28-2021, 03:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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Just for the hell of it, I’m working on a new setting. I’m not sure how to best set up the magic system so that the gods are flavorfuly woven into it, and I’m looking for ideas. In the setting, magic comes directly from the gods and requires petitioning the gods correctly. In magic as in ordinary life, few people rely on only one god, since no one god oversees all aspects of the world. Instead, the wizard learns to interact with “the gods”. Wizards are like voodooists, dealing with multiple loa. Priests exist, but there is no separate system for “clerical magic”. Priests who want to cast spells have to learn the same magic as everyone else.

I’m leaning towards some version of path/book magic, with modifiers for how well the rituals incorporate the relevant gods, and how those gods feel about the spellcaster and their goal. However, that would be difficult to implement for the following reasons.
Is the magic invoking these gods Mana or Sanctity based?

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1. There are many gods. At my last count, there are 67 major ones who have worshipers all over the continent where campaigns are assumed to be set.

2. The jurisdictions of these gods overlap. So, for instance, there are eight competing major gods responsible for the element of fire.
Are they all truly different gods or the different aspects of far fewer gods?

Take Greek mythology for example where in some versions Helios is just another aspect of Apollo - part of him but separate. Hinduism is another example where each main deity has several aspects; sort of like one of those Russian dolls that has another smaller one inside of it.

Miscellaneous Myths: Kali Tries To Kill Everything given one example. Parvati is an aspect of Shakti. Durga is an aspect Shakti. And Kali is an aspect of Durga.

Christianity has something similar (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) but they are all equal.

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3. Some gods have much broader jurisdictions than other gods. So, for instance, one god is a deity of agriculture, drugs, fire, law, and war, while other gods have jurisdiction over only one of those areas.
This is sounding much like that aspect thing.

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So, any thoughts on how to set up the magic system?
IMHO, there are a few more needed details to give more then vague suggestions.
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Old 03-28-2021, 05:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

You can have both half a dozen goddesses of fertility and have them worshiped under three dozen names. Really confuse things.
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Old 03-29-2021, 02:57 AM   #26
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You can have both half a dozen goddesses of fertility and have them worshiped under three dozen names. Really confuse things.
Polytheistic religions do this all the time and many times the domains shift between the variants.

Aphrodite was like this. In fact, her Spartan variant, Aphrodite Areia, was a war goddess.

Aphrodite Areia: Make love not war? What? Forget that nonsense, I do both!

There is also Aphrodite Urania and Aphrodite Pendemos. Pendemos is the lustful, impulsive, and vindictive version that most people think of when they hear "Aphrodite"
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Old 03-29-2021, 07:19 AM   #27
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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Is the magic invoking these gods Mana or Sanctity based?
Mana. The gods are just top-tier magical entities.

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Are they all truly different gods or the different aspects of far fewer gods?
They are all truly different gods.

There was an apocalypse. The old gods are mostly dead and forgotten. A mass of new gods has sprung up to compete for their places.

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Take Greek mythology for example where in some versions Helios is just another aspect of Apollo - part of him but separate. Hinduism is another example where each main deity has several aspects; sort of like one of those Russian dolls that has another smaller one inside of it.
As the universe grows more ordered, some gods may become mere aspects of other gods, as Helios became an aspect of Apollo. But right now, it's a mass of gods jostling for position.

This is important to the setting, in which the conflicts of the gods drive human affairs. So, for instance, there are four major sun gods in the setting, all competing because they all want to be THE sun god. If one becomes an aspect of another, those two lose a reason to be in conflict.

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IMHO, there are a few more needed details to give more then vague suggestions.
Sure. If you have specific questions, fire away.
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Old 03-31-2021, 09:18 PM   #28
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

I've thought it might be interesting to do something along these lines:
Mana is provided by the gods. In order to get any, you have to sacrifice things to the gods, and the mana you get is aspected to them and their sphere of influence. How much mana you get access to is based upon how many/how much sacrifices you have done to the god in question. What each god wants sacrificed to them would also be different, depending upon the god. Khrr'ghhn, the reptileman god of war and wealth, would like slain enemies, money, gems, or perhaps only some of your blood. A slain enemy might net you the ability to channel 20 mana (up to your fatigue limit at a time, though, so you use up your 10 points, rest, and can get 10 more before you need to do some more sacrificing). Cutting your arm and donating some blood might give you 5 mana (cutting someone else's arm might only give 2 mana for the same amount of blood...you aren't sacrificing, someone else is; but hey, blood is blood, and it's the thought that counts....)



Granted, you are now having to track a series of mana pools for those wizards who want a lot of flexibility. But a spellsword who specializes in fire magic would only be sacrificing to a single god, and only have a single mana pool. Of course, enchanters have to sacrifice to a whole slew of gods, so they spend a lot of time between enchantments doing the rounds in all the temples.
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Old 03-31-2021, 10:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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Mana. The gods are just top-tier magical entities.
Sure. If you have specific questions, fire away.
One way I look at Sanctity is that is it is a special form of aspected mana where instead of being aspect to an element, college, or path it is aspected to a certain deity.

Isis of Roma Arcana is like this - she gives her worshippers Magery rather then Power Investiture which given how Mana interacts with Sanctity in that setting puts her in a really weird place.

The key issue is what do these deities get from followers and if they get something how much do those followers effect the deities. Does their ability to mess around in the world involve belief? If so what level is enough to keep them going?

Do the deities make magical items as an examples of their power so to attract more followers?
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Old 04-01-2021, 04:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Getting the Gods into the Magic System

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I've thought it might be interesting to do something along these lines: Mana is provided by the gods. In order to get any, you have to sacrifice things to the gods, and the mana you get is aspected to them and their sphere of influence.
That's an interesting idea. Lots of great ideas in this thread for me to think through.

You guys are really forcing me to think about how I want people in the setting relating to the gods, and that's a good thing.

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The key issue is what do these deities get from followers and if they get something how much do those followers effect the deities. Does their ability to mess around in the world involve belief?
The form the gods take, and the gods' ability to mess around with the world, both depend on human thoughts, including beliefs, but also dreams and imagination. Almost nobody knows this, including among the gods. Gods seek worship because they want to be worshiped.

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If so what level is enough to keep them going?
That's deliberately kept ambiguous. Many of the new gods have elements of gods that nobody has believed in for millennia. Since the setting is a future post-apocalyptic Earth, these old gods are the gods we know.

So, for instance, the new god Red Bull has many characteristics of the Egyptian god Apis, along with many differences. Is Red Bull in some way Apis? Who knows?

Even names can carry over. There's a god of agriculture and war named "Mars". Is He the same Mars the Roman's worshiped? He has similarities and differences.

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Do the deities make magical items as an examples of their power so to attract more followers?
Generally, they only make magic items to achieve some practical goal of their own. This can still lead to magic items of divine creation getting into moral hands. Making magic items of divine quality takes a lot of work.

Good question! I need to think about this.
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