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Old 12-20-2019, 09:10 AM   #11
ericthered
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
In gurps Terms, you're doing a little over x2 damage. Most of that is from ST. The weight increase grants a flat but not insignificant bonus. One of the low tech compendiums covers increasing weapon weight. But in general, st drives damage, and weapon weight is secondary.
To be specific, Low Tech Compendium 2: Weapons and Warriors, page 21.

Using specific numbers, a knobbed club from LT65 does +1 cr damage. If we scale it up for use by a SM+2 creature, it does x2.5 times the damage bonus, or +3 cr damage.

A ST 10 wielder of the club does 1d+1 cr damage. A ST 20 wielder of the original club does 3d+3 damage, and a ST20 weilder of the enlarged club does 3d+5 damage.

So most of the damage increase comes from improved ST, but some of it comes from a properly sized weapon.
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Old 12-20-2019, 12:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Well, the first problem is that the distance table implies that a thrower puts more energy into an object the heavier it is, yet the damage table implies that there's a point of peak efficiency, and above and below that weight ratio less energy is put into the object.
The first thing definitely isn't true. Weight and distance modifier have an inverse relationship over most of the range. Since range varies as V^2, that table indicates that changing the weight at constant strength generally doesn't change the energy at all.

The damage table does imply a point of peak efficiency. However, I would hesitate to assume that damage corresponds to energy.
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Then there's the way the distance table says doubling your ST lets you throw an object four times the weight twice as far (for eight times the energy).
Yes, that is questionable.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

Doubling your ST score quadruples your BL. Thus twice the distance because you are applying twice the amount of energy than before.

ST 10 is BL 20, ST 20 is BL 80.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think there's anywhere better to look for what the ST stat translates to in terms of actions faster than weight lifting.
The problem is that the throwing rules are nonsense.

Basically, throwing distance is equal to energy/weight * adjustment for angle, and energy is equal to force * distance (during the throwing process). This works out to (distance thrown) = (distance moved when throwing) * (force applied when throwing) / (weight) -- i.e. distance is based on arm length * BL/weight. There's some additional efficiency effects because muscle applies less force as its contraction speed increases, but in general a ST 20/SM 0 character should throw an 80 lb object (1xBL) exactly the same distance as a ST 10/SM 0 character would throw a 20 lb object. The GURPS throwing rules has the first character throw it twice as far.
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Old 12-20-2019, 09:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

My least favorite thing about throwing in the game: There's the BS system for throwing things, which (as noted above) isn't universally loved, but at least it's a generic system . . . which weapons then completely ignore anyway, each weapon using its own "distance = ST * X" rule. Bleah.

On top of that is the lack of reasonable mods to throwing distance for AOA, skill, or movement (i.e., a running throw).

Hardly the kind of thing that destroys the game, but a minor dissatisfaction all the same.
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Old 12-20-2019, 11:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The first thing definitely isn't true. Weight and distance modifier have an inverse relationship over most of the range. Since range varies as V^2, that table indicates that changing the weight at constant strength generally doesn't change the energy at all.
That's not true - it's only a simple inverse relationship for things heavier than your BL. For objects less than your BL it's closer to one quarter the weight gives twice the range. I very much doubt that the point where someone throwing an object loses efficiency is anywhere near as high as their BL. I'd expect it to be closer to 1/4 BL, and something too fiddly to bother with in GURPS anyway, especially as it'd be related to Striking ST not Lifting ST, yet throwing weight ratios are off BL, which is from Lifting ST.

Also, weights under BL would be the more common things to be throwing in a non-supers game, so that should be where the system actually makes as much sense as possible, and it doesn't.

Something like [BL]/[Object weight] x 5 yards, capped at ST x 5 yards (numbers made up, subject to reality testing, etc.) would make more sense. Then adjust them for 2-handed throws, time taken, run ups, only caring about distance rather than trying to hit something, and so on.
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Old 12-21-2019, 12:23 AM   #17
bert
 
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The first thing you should do with the throwing rules is never look at them again.
Would you please elaborate on why?
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:52 AM   #18
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Would you please elaborate on why?
I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:44 PM   #19
bert
 
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
My apologies - I missed your follow-up post for some reason. Thanks!
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Old 12-23-2019, 09:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: If I'm 4 strong and my club is 4 heavy, do I hit you with 16 force?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
Lifting ST and Striking ST are different though, so x2 overall ST is x16 increase in the energy available (x4 for the x4 increase in BL from x2 Lifting ST and x4 for the x2 increase in velocity from x2 Striking ST). A character with only x2 Lifting ST would throw x4 the weight the same velocity while a character with only x2 Striking ST would throw the same weight at twice the velocity.
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