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Old 01-13-2019, 09:53 PM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Rather than continue this on another thread, I thought it best to break this off into its own thread. The point to be debated in this thread, is the validity of using Time for Skill in enchantments - which, well, read on...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Assuming he started with 1 pt in each he needs 7 more to rise from 12 to 15. OJT divded equally between Enchant and the other spell that 1400 days. If he had 2 pts in Enchant it's 10 pts for that.

This assumes that the "Trading Energy for Skill" dodge works for a Skill-12 Enchnter and my reading is that it would not.

My 1st ed/1st priting copy of Magic for 3e says in the third paragraph under "Enchanting: Creating a Magic Item" that the Enchanter and all assistants must _know_ both Enchant and the spell being put into the item at 15 or higher. Not "be able to cast the spells at an effective level of 15" or other such phrasing.

"Energy for Skill" would come into effect for Enchanting _after_ you knew it at level 15.
Let's go with your statement as given. It is after all, a direct quote of the relevant section.

I underlined the crucial point of your argument, and I will go along with it for the moment, but if what you say is true, then regardless, any mage whose basic skill is 15, can enchant a magic item regardless of any subsequent penalties, because per your argument, it is not "Effective skill" but absolute skill, correct?

Quick and Dirty specifies just the opposite of the implied meaning of "it did not specify effective skill". At a penalty of -1 per extra assistant, plus an additional -1 penalty per HT used in casting your quick and dirty enchantment outright, the moment your effective skill drops below 15, the enchantment becomes impossible.

But wait - Quick and Dirty enchantment is a special case. There would be no other time in which for slow and sure enchantment, which is ceremonial in nature, is ever going to drop the absolute skill below 15 right?

So, a Solitary Aspected Mage, who suffers a -3 penalty to his spell casting, would he be able to engage in slow and sure enchantment with an absolute skill of 15+?

It would seem then, if you answered "No" to the Solitary Aspected mage being able to enchant an item when within 15 of another person - that we're talking about "Effective" skill.

If Magic Item Power is based upon "Effective Skill, then yes, the low mana penalty of making a magic item in a low mana region, and using that magic item in a low mana suffers twice - one for the making of the item, and once for the use of the item in low mana.

But - when you get right down to it? Using Time for Skill, merely requires that a person spend THREE times longer to create a power 20 item in a low mana area. The rules are even spelled out with respect to making magic items that will function in a low mana region as requiring 3x the energy, and is priced at 3x the energy cost to make.

In the end? An absolute reading of the rule is "Must be 15+". But the subsequent rules talk not about absolute skill, but about effective skill.

Your call. You are right to be able to say "but the rules state X" and the actual quote will support you. But everything subsequent to that quote, points not to an absolute skill value, but an effective skill value. Your rendering puts the player in the position of "How do I go from skill X (which is less than 15) to X+1 (which is also less than 15)?" If you can't improve skills with experience points gained through adventuring, and you can't realistically improve a skill you can't succeed at without it reaching a specific value - then how does an IQ 8 student study to reach skill 15?

In all? Improving effective skill to 15 mirrors the criteria that you may not LOWER the effective skill below 15. The criteria simply being "Magic Items require an Effective skill of 15 or they won't succeed."
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:43 AM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I underlined the crucial point of your argument, and I will go along with it for the moment, but if what you say is true, then regardless, any mage whose basic skill is 15, can enchant a magic item regardless of any subsequent penalties, because per your argument, it is not "Effective skill" but absolute skill, correct?
It's both. The mage must have an absolute skill of 15+ (or he cannot use enchantment, or any other type of ceremonial magic), and the item must have a power of 15+.
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Last edited by Anthony; 01-14-2019 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:56 AM   #3
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It's both. The mage must have an absolute skill of 15+ (or he cannot use enchantment, or any other type of ceremonial magic), and the item must have a power of 15+.
We've already established that if it is absolute - it doesn't make sense in light of all subsequent wording requiring that the enchantment skill level can never be "adjusted" (another way of saying "Effective") below 15.

Enchantment is by definition, Ceremonial Spell casting. Ceremonial Spell casting where it comes to circles, also requires an adjusted skill of 15+ before the mages may link. This matches the description of what is required for a CIRCLE of mages to work together ceremonially, which is how it would have to work when doing Quick and Dirty.

Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. But lets see if it is possible for a single mage to meet the requirements of ceremonial magic casting with himself as the ONLY mage involved.

I suspect that people would say "No, he cannot be the sole mage casting ceremonial magic."

Yet, when you read ceremonial magic, there are TWO ways to cast Ceremonial magic. The first is via "Circle".

But there is a second method.

Specifically...

"There are two ways to cooperate in ceremonial magic:"

They are:

"Circle. Any number of mages can “link” to cast a spell, if they all know it
at level 15 or better.
"

and

"Spectators. Unskilled observers can aid a ceremonial casting; they usually
chant, hold candles, etc.
"

One requires a linked group of mages with requisite spell skills at 15+. The other, a single mage with just ONE spectator plus the mage taking 10x longer to cast the spell ceremoniously, is sufficient.

Then, using "Tradeoff: Energy for Skill" which can only be done for ceremonial spell casings - the mage can get his effective skill up to what ever his extra energy levels will provide.

Thus - a single mage with spectators - can have an adjusted skill HIGHER than his absolute skill. When rolling against skill however (any skill in GURPS) - it is ALWAYS against the adjusted skill.

So, why all of the sudden is there the belief that the wording disallows adjusted skill in the third paragraph for Enchantments? Subsequent wording for enchantments - whether it is quick and dirty, or anything else, all work on effective skill. The magic item's power is based upon Effective skill. The ability to craft a magic item via quick and dirty - is limited to having an effective skill of 15+ (just as it says in the third paragraph in the initial description of magic item creation).

Absolute skill spellwise - to the best of my knowledge, only has a limit in magic under one circumstance. That being...

In order for a requisite spell to qualify as a valid requisite fulfillment of the requisite requirement, must be at skill 12+ to qualify. If a mage needs Ignite Fire to fulfill a requisite for the next spell, he can't spend 1 point in Ignite Fire, and then learn the next spell. He has to learn it to skill 12 (regardless of whether it takes 1 point, 2, or more) before he can learn the next spell. This is absolute.

I invite you to find any references to "Absolute" skill level as a requisite for spell casting itself. In other words, you can't cast a specific spell unless your skill is at a specific level. I'd suspect that you won't find one.


The only real discussion about absolute skill levels as far as magic casting itself is concerned, is whether you have a skill of 18 - that you can cast the spell silently, but with a hand gesture, or skill 21 where you can cast the spell in a particular fashion - but neither example precludes the ability to cast the spell at skill level (ie absolute skill) of 8. In other words, regardless of your skill level, spells can still be cast.

All except - per your statement, Enchant.

Which brings me back to my original point: Absolute Skill for Enchant as a requisite does not make sense.

If despite my points, you wish to stick with inserting the word "Absolute" skill - that's fine. Two different trains of thought, two different minds. But it just doesn't make sense in the grand overall scheme of things for 3e rules.

Which brings me to the other point...

ALL of this, becomes a moot point when you are discussing GURPS MAGIC for 4e, because they made changes that largely remove any foundation to my assertion that the original rules did provide for a mage with skill 12 to make enchantments. When I asked Rupert for a specific wording in GURPS MAGIC for 4e, there was no specific wording where you can trade time for skill. Energy for skill, yes, but time for skill (which is strictly of value only for enchantments done slow and sure) doesn't seem to be there. Without that provision, no mage can raise their effective skill, but can only DECREASE their skill with the rules as written (as far as slow and sure goes).
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:52 AM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Rather than continue this on another thread, I thought it best to break this off into its own thread. The point to be debated in this thread, is the validity of using Time for Skill in enchantments - which, well, read on...

"
I don't really want to go round and round about this but I will speak briefly.

I went back to Magic 1e because you set such importance on what you appear to deem critical mistakes in the updating of Magic for 4e.

Workign from Magic 4e now though the box on p.12 about Ceremonial Magic begins with saying that "If you know a spell at 15 or higher" . I find "know" to be unamibiguous. It means IQ+Magery+cp spent on the spell adds up to 15 before any temporary modifiers.

This is a limiter before you can even get started. It appears clear to me that you may not start at a level below 15 and then accumulate bonuses to get you up to 15.

You explicitly can use trading Energy for Skill to raise an items Power but this will not let you circumvent the requiremnt to _know_ the requisite Spell at 15+.

It also seems clear to me that the -5 for Low Mana is deemed a temporary modifier. It would follow from that that any bonus gained from local mana level if one was using Continuous Mana from Thaumatology would also be a temporary modifier.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:21 AM   #5
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I don't really want to go round and round about this but I will speak briefly.

I went back to Magic 1e because you set such importance on what you appear to deem critical mistakes in the updating of Magic for 4e.

Workign from Magic 4e now though the box on p.12 about Ceremonial Magic begins with saying that "If you know a spell at 15 or higher" . I find "know" to be unamibiguous. It means IQ+Magery+cp spent on the spell adds up to 15 before any temporary modifiers.

This is a limiter before you can even get started. It appears clear to me that you may not start at a level below 15 and then accumulate bonuses to get you up to 15.

You explicitly can use trading Energy for Skill to raise an items Power but this will not let you circumvent the requiremnt to _know_ the requisite Spell at 15+.

It also seems clear to me that the -5 for Low Mana is deemed a temporary modifier. It would follow from that that any bonus gained from local mana level if one was using Continuous Mana from Thaumatology would also be a temporary modifier.
Understanding your desire NOT to go round and round on this, I shall respect your wishes. I will also agree that GURPS MAGIC for 4e does word things differently. I will also note that in the previous incarnations of GURPS MAGIC or even GURPS FANTASY 1st edition in which magic was first introduced, one could not pull a spectator off the street and simply cast ceremonial magic without issue. Under the newer 4e rules, this is precisely what can be done.

So yes, Magic for use with 4e has evolved. What was present in GURPS MAGIC, or GURPS FANTASY 1st edition has changed. Good? Bad? Indifferent? That is largely up to anyone who even cares (and my bet is that many do not). Few even care about the evolution of a spell like COPY in GURPS MAGIC for 4e and note how it changed from GURPS FANTASY 1st edition.

So, trying to use GURPS 4e as a means of clarifying things in 3e strikes me as a bad way to go simply because the evolution does not necessarily stem from an attempt to clarify as simply an attempt to either simplify, or even to ease the complaints of several that the spell wasn't "useful" enough.

How many point to GURPS MAGIC for 4e and complain that it is one of the worst "upgrades" from 3e to 4e ever produced?

So, with the comment that you don't want to get into it etc - I would be wise to drop it entirely.

:)
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:30 AM   #6
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I will also note that in the previous incarnations of GURPS MAGIC or even GURPS FANTASY 1st edition in which magic was first introduced, one could not pull a spectator off the street and simply cast ceremonial magic without issue.
Yes you could. It was the same 1 energy per spectator (max 100), 3 energy per mage or per spectator with skill 12+, unrestricted energy for skill 15+ mages, and spectators are not allowed in Enchantment.
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