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Old 01-24-2018, 10:20 PM   #21
Tom H.
 
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The scroll is gone after the second turn, because that's when you roll and when you no longer have two hands to hold it. I don't think it makes much sense for the scroll to still provide energy when it doesn't exist anymore.
I'm saying that you (the reader or caster) would be required to provide the additional energy as specified on the now non-existent scroll based on the level of damage effects specified on the scroll by the enchanter.

This all goes back to the crux of the issue I discovered when creating my cheat sheet.

Technically, the cost to cast a Fireball in fact is often prolonged beyond the completion of the spell casting. There's your spell casting rule anomaly right there.

This isn't really a problem; it's just an identifiable special case for spells that hasn't really been analyzed. (. . . And may benefit from an official ruling for any nitpickers, myself included.) (I offered a solution above, but it is just one interpretation.)

Last edited by Tom H.; 01-24-2018 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

Here is another nitpicky but interesting side effect of the spell casting anomaly I have presented.

It even has double-slit experiment, time paradox, physics implications. (Okay, I may not really know what I'm talking about; you be the judge.)

Consider this scenario:

I am a mage casting my own Fireball spell at skill 15.

On turn 1, I cast the spell and create a 1d missile in my hand using up 1 FP.
On turn 2, I enlarge the fireball to 2d using up another 1 FP.
On turn 3, I enlarge the fireball to 3d. However, I would not use up another 1 FP, because I get a 1 energy cost reduction for knowing the spell at 15.

Now consider this alternate scenario:

On turn 1, I cast the spell and create a 1d missile in my hand using up 1 FP.
On turn 2, I decide to attack with my 1d missile without further enlargement.

Hey, what about my 1 energy cost reduction. I guess I get it back retroactively.

In theory, I should have not had to even use 1 FP on turn 1. How was I or the system supposed to predict my future actions.


Now, this scenario would not have applied to scrolls in which cost reductions are not allowed, but it still goes to the blurry distinction between spell casting and enlarging.

Again, nitpicky, but it highlights an issue with the way things are defined.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

The simplest solution is that charged scrolls don't provide any energy past the first turn.
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Old 01-25-2018, 01:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
. . .
Also there is no "initial enlargement", look at the cost line for Fireball, this energy is part of the casting.
. . .
Hey, you're right, technically. The initial charge is not defined as an enlargement. I even checked GURPS Magic where I thought I learned it that way, my mistake.

So I think I have a very clean solution to re-word missile casting with no real change in effect.

How to cast a Missile Spell:

To cast a missile spell take from 1 to 3 consecutive Concentrate maneuvers. You may choose the end of any of those turns to complete the casting of the spell and make your success roll.
The missile appears charged to the level indicated in the cost of the spell.
There is technically no need for the enlarge action.
The spell really ends when it ends.

I do not think you would be any more vulnerable with this approach since the current enlarging approach also requires Concentrate maneuvers that could be spoiled.

This language (or something with Kromm's touch) appears to me to be much more efficient and conceptually clearer.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:20 AM   #25
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

Whoops . . .

So now the main drawback to the revised approach is that you can't recoup the additional turns like you can when you always find out if your missile fails on the first turn.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:16 AM   #26
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

Also, failed spells only cost 1 FP.
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
Hey, you're right, technically. The initial charge is not defined as an enlargement. I even checked GURPS Magic where I thought I learned it that way, my mistake.

So I think I have a very clean solution to re-word missile casting with no real change in effect.

<snip>
I do think this has several effects on casting spells. First, (at least in my games) spells are not obvious what they are till the cast is done casting. Players (and NPCs) wouldn't know what the spell is till the wizard is done, which would very much change the tactics they'd employed. It also removes the risk of "dropping" a missile spell if hit. Now wizards will only have one turn of "venerability" in most cases before they can throw the spell and be done.

I don't see any problem with:
  • Turn 1: cast spell at whatever level is wanted for the first turn, reduce casting cost per skill level.
  • Turn 2: throw, hold, or enlarge with no reduction for skill
  • Turn 3: throw, hold, or enlarge with no reduction for skill
  • Turn 4+: throw or hold

This is how the rules under missile spells read to me and is how I've always played. If anything, I'd change the "Time to cast" entry to 1 second for missile spells to clearly make "enlarging" a separate thing from the actual casting.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

The time to cast any Missile spell is one second, so the time to read any such scroll is two seconds. The reader can then enlarge the missile – or not – but enlarging isn't casting. And neither is even possible unless the reader has the right advantage to use the scroll, or the scroll is universal.

The cash cost for an uncharged Missile spell scroll is $20 per energy point invested during the two-second reading, which also caps the amount of energy that can be spent later for enlargement. Double cash cost as usual if the scroll is universal and thus useful to everybody, not just one specific caster type.
Example: An uncharged wizardly Fireball scroll can be bought in sizes from 1d to 6d (corresponding to a creator with Magery 1-6), for $20 to $120. All take two second to read. After reading, you can take the usual one or two seconds to enlarge if desired; each second adds at most dice equal to the base for that scroll. A $20, 1d scroll is a cheaper way to get a 3d missile than a $60, 3d scroll . . . but it takes 2 (reading) + 2 (enlarging) = 4 seconds to generate 3d, while the $60 version takes two seconds to generate 3d and can give you 6d or 9d after three or four seconds. The only differences if these scrolls are universal are that $ cost doubles and anybody can use them.
Charged scrolls are where things get weird, as there's really no question that 6 energy for a 2d scroll that provided a 6d missile after two seconds of reading and two more of enlarging wouldn't be equivalent to 6 energy for a 6d scroll that provided a 6d missile after just two seconds of reading. To rectify this, just assume that such scrolls are available in versions from 1d to 18d but always take two seconds to read. A 3Nd charged scroll is a faster and less-fatiguing way to generate a 3Nd missile than an Nd uncharged scroll, but it will always cost 7.5× times as much (2.5× for being charged and 3× for including the enlargement energy).
Example: A charged wizardly Fireball scroll can be bought in sizes from 1d to 18d (corresponding to a creator with Magery 1-6 taking 1-3 seconds), for $50 to $900. All take two second to read. After reading, they produce their missile at full strength. Again, the differences if these scrolls are universal are that $ cost doubles and anybody can use them.
Thus, the exhaustive rundown for Fireball would be (using tons of copy and paste!):
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 1d: $20; 1d after two seconds of reading and 1 FP, 2d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 2 FP, or 3d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 3 FP; requires Magery.
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 2d: $40; 2d after two seconds of reading and 2 FP, 4d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 4 FP, or 6d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 6 FP; requires Magery.
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 3d: $60; 3d after two seconds of reading and 3 FP, 6d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 6 FP, or 9d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 9 FP; requires Magery.
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 4d: $80; 4d after two seconds of reading and 4 FP, 8d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 8 FP, or 12d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 12 FP; requires Magery.
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 5d: $100; 5d after two seconds of reading and 5 FP, 10d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 10 FP, or 15d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 15 FP; requires Magery.
  • Uncharged, wizardly, 6d: $120; 6d after two seconds of reading and 6 FP, 12d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 12 FP, or 18d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 18 FP; requires Magery.

  • Uncharged, universal, 1d: $40; 1d after two seconds of reading and 1 FP, 2d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 2 FP, or 3d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 3 FP.
  • Uncharged, universal, 2d: $80; 2d after two seconds of reading and 2 FP, 4d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 4 FP, or 6d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 6 FP.
  • Uncharged, universal, 3d: $120; 3d after two seconds of reading and 3 FP, 6d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 6 FP, or 9d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 9 FP.
  • Uncharged, universal, 4d: $160; 4d after two seconds of reading and 4 FP, 8d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 8 FP, or 12d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 12 FP.
  • Uncharged, universal, 5d: $200; 5d after two seconds of reading and 5 FP, 10d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 10 FP, or 15d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 15 FP.
  • Uncharged, universal, 6d: $240; 6d after two seconds of reading and 6 FP, 12d after two seconds of reading + one second of enlarging (three seconds) and 12 FP, or 18d after two seconds of reading + two seconds of enlarging (four seconds) and 18 FP.

  • Charged, wizardly, 1d: $50; 1d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 2d: $100; 2d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 3d: $150; 3d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 4d: $200; 4d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 5d: $250; 5d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 6d: $300; 6d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 7d: $350; 7d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 8d: $400; 8d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 9d: $450; 9d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 10d: $500; 10d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 11d: $550; 11d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 12d: $600; 12d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 13d: $650; 13d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 14d: $700; 14d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 15d: $750; 15d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 16d: $800; 16d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 17d: $850; 17d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.
  • Charged, wizardly, 18d: $900; 18d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP; requires Magery.

  • Charged, universal, 1d: $100; 1d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 2d: $200; 2d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 3d: $300; 3d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 4d: $400; 4d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 5d: $500; 5d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 6d: $600; 6d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 7d: $700; 7d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 8d: $800; 8d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 9d: $900; 9d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 10d: $1,000; 10d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 11d: $1,100; 11d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 12d: $1,200; 12d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 13d: $1,300; 13d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 14d: $1,400; 14d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 15d: $1,500; 15d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 16d: $1,600; 16d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 17d: $1,700; 17d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
  • Charged, universal, 18d: $1,800; 18d after two seconds of reading and 0 FP.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

It's your call whether you want to pay $240 for the magical equivalent of an 18d death ray with a hand-cranked accumulator that's slow and laborious to use or $1,800 for the magical equivalent of an 18d death ray that drains a big power cell. If there's time between battles to read the scroll, charge the missile (possibly with friends helping me with Lend Energy), and recover FP, I'd much rather pay $240 and walk into the fight with 18d at the ready. If I'm caught in an ambush, you'd better believe I'd prefer the fatigue-free 18d in two seconds . . . and I'd probably think $1,800 was worth it.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

These tables are a great help, Herr Doktor, and having them available makes the game easier and faster to set up and run.
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