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Old 01-24-2018, 04:59 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Three seconds of Magery 6 sounds like an 18d fireball to me... What fireball size do *you* get?
That's one second to cast and optionally up to two seconds (not four or seventeen!) to enlarge. You roll at the end of the first second. Charged scrolls specifically cover the casting costs, and the scroll dissappears after you cast anyway.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:24 PM   #12
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

What an interesting topic.

ArchonShiva is getting really good at poking some of the nuances in the system.

And I really agree with most of the interpretation that SirPudding has provided.

This was one of those brain teasers that got me thinking.

I actually think this situation would benefit from an official ruling.

So just to clarify:

The issue at stake seems to really be a distinction with missile spells between the casting and the enlarging.

My opinion:

The casting of the missile spell should govern the initial enlargement. This would rely on the scroll enchanter's magery level (or spell casting talent) for the initial "power/size/effect" of the missile charge.

As per Exploits, pg. 76, the scroll would specify the magery level that the enchanter would actually allow in the spell.

After that, I would assume that the scroll reader is on his own with the following two enlargements drawing from only his own magery level (spell casting talent).

Example:
A level 2 mage casts fireball from a scroll specifying a 6d damage missile enchanted by a level 6 mage.
The maximum strength of the fireball using all enlargement actions would be 10d damage (6d + 2d + 2d).
Now . . . try not to miss!


Okay, now somebody please stop me (although I'm sure ArchonShiva would appreciate this.)

I don't recommend this, but is it logical that a scroll could be created solely for enlarging a missile? Of course, you would complicate enlarging time limits (getting the scroll out and reading it before you run out of your two allotted enlargement seconds). The point of this thought exercise is to define exactly what an enlarging action is. It's in that gray twilight zone between casting a spell and manipulating it, especially for the initial enlargement.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
The casting of the missile spell should govern the initial enlargement. This would rely on the scroll enchanter's magery level (or spell casting talent) for the initial "power/size/effect" of the missile charge.
Only for charged scrolls. For default scrolls you can pretty obviously only put in as much energy as your Talent allows.

Also there is no "initial enlargement", look at the cost line for Fireball, this energy is part of the casting.

Quote:
I don't recommend this, but is it logical that a scroll could be created solely for enlarging a missile? Of course, you would complicate enlarging time limits (getting the scroll out and reading it before you run out of your two allotted enlargement seconds). The point of this thought exercise is to define exactly what an enlarging action is. It's in that gray twilight zone between casting a spell and manipulating it, especially for the initial enlargement.
Scrolls take two hands, and they aren't primarily about providing energy anyway, but rather for casting spells (charged scrolls are just an option), so I don't think this is necessary or makes sense. Use a power item for this.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Can a scroll of fireball 24d even be made?
If the GM allows it, sure. If they allow Magery to go higher than 6, then definitely.

But it's going to be one exorbitantly expensive scroll.
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Only for charged scrolls. For default scrolls you can pretty obviously only put in as much energy as your Talent allows.

Also there is no "initial enlargement", look at the cost line for Fireball, this energy is part of the casting.
. . .
I don't agree, and this is what makes the topic interesting.

What I really believe is that their should be a strict delineation between casting and enlarging.

My real opinion would be that all the missile spell really does is create a 0d charge. All enlargements are the purview of the scroll reader.

But this would make the enchantment a 0 energy prospect which is odd.*

The first enlargement is special and here is why.

It necessarily conflates the casting with the enlarging.

Casting a missile spell:
1 Turn:
Concentrate
Success roll for spell
Enlarge

Enlarging a missile:
1 Turn:
Concentrate
Enlarge

The initial enlargement is not exactly uniform with the others. I created a cheat sheet that attempted to strictly define an enlarge action. The first enlarge necessarily merges its concentrate with that of the spell casting in a blended order.


I think the compromise solution is to allow the first enlargement to use the magery of the enchanter but the energy of the reader (for uncharged scrolls).

Exploits, pg. 76 says "When the spell goes off, the reader pays the energy cost for whatever spell effects the scroll's creator chose."

Assuming that the enchanter would at least have to enchant the first enlargement with a single energy, I say allow him to use his entire magery just for the first enlargement.

I think the follow up enlargements are more easily defined to be strictly out of the casting sequence.

Of course, this is a very technical and gray issue with room for opinions. That's just my logic.


* Edit: After reviewing GURPS enchantment rules this is probably not that odd. However, there could still be issues with forced energy requirements from the specification in the scroll as we discussed in the next few posts (considering how you want to interpret the rules as written.)

Last edited by Tom H.; 01-24-2018 at 10:28 PM. Reason: New research
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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I don't agree, and this is what makes the topic interesting.
I'm sorry, which part are you disagreeing with?

Quote:
My real opinion would be that all the missile spell really does is create a 0d charge. All enlargements are the purview of the scroll reader.
In which case then there wouldn't be any such thing as a charged scroll for missile spells.

Quote:
I think the compromise solution is to allow the first enlargement to use the magery of the enchanter but the energy of the reader (for uncharged scrolls).

Exploits, pg. 76 says "When the spell goes off, the reader pays the energy cost for whatever spell effects the scroll's creator chose."

Assuming that the enchanter would at least have to enchant the first enlargement with a single energy, I say allow him to use his entire magery just for the first enlargement.

I think the follow up enlargements are more easily defined to be strictly out of the casting sequence.

Of course, this is a very technical and gray issue with room for opinions. That's just my logic.
Then we seem to be in agreement, after all?
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by Exploits p76
If the spellís effects are variable, the scroll specifes such parameters as area, damage dice, and level of effect. The user canít adjust these things!
That last line, "The user canít adjust these things!", makes me inclined to say that missile spell scrolls can't be enlarged, they have a fixed level and are capped at 6d (or whatever the max is for a one second casting, based on the scroll creator's Magery).
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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That last line, "The user canít adjust these things!", makes me inclined to say that missile spell scrolls can't be enlarged, they have a fixed level and are capped at 6d (or whatever the max is for a one second casting, based on the scroll creator's Magery).
Huh, yeah I think that settles it.
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
That last line, "The user can’t adjust these things!", makes me inclined to say that missile spell scrolls can't be enlarged, they have a fixed level and are capped at 6d (or whatever the max is for a one second casting, based on the scroll creator's Magery).
Again, I think it depends on exactly how you classify the second two spell enlargement opportunities.

Are they part of the spell casting proper or are they more like manipulating a spell's effects.

Spells, pg. 11, informally defines manipulation: "You can maintain a spell without concentration unless it requires constant manipulation and change; e.g., to maneuver a levitating object."

In fact, consider a scroll with the Levitation spell. The effects of the user directing the nature of his movement (manipulation) after casting would not be specified in the scroll.

Although JMason's interpretation is certainly reasonable, I would judge that the scroll enchanter must then specify the amount of magery that the scroll reader would have to comply with for the second and third enlargements (even if it's beyond the scroll reader's magery level). (That is if you still want to hold on to the idea that the second and third enlargements are part of the spell's effects where "effects" are specified in the rule as written.)

Last edited by Tom H.; 01-24-2018 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Casting time of missile spell scrolls

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Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
Again, I think it depends on exactly how you classify the second two spell enlargement opportunities.

Are they part of the spell casting proper or are they more like manipulating a spell's effects.

Spells, pg. 11, informally defines manipulation: "You can maintain a spell without concentration unless it requires constant manipulation and change; e.g., to maneuver a levitating object."

In fact, consider a scroll with the Levitation spell. The effects of the user directing the nature of his movement (manipulation) after casting would not be specified in the scroll.

Although JMason's interpretation is certainly reasonable, I would judge that the scroll enchanter must then specify the amount of magery that the scroll reader would have to comply with for the second and third enlargements (even if it's beyond the scroll reader's magery level). (That is if you still want to hold on to the idea that the second and third enlargements are part of the spell's effects where "effects" are specified in the rule as written.)
The scroll is gone after the second turn, because that's when you roll and when you no longer have two hands to hold it. I don't think it makes much sense for the scroll to still provide energy when it doesn't exist anymore.
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