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Old 11-03-2016, 03:14 AM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

Hello Folks,
As a result of the other thread regarding Zone Minds, I thought I'd take the time to go through the material with something of a finer tooth comb than I had in the past. This was prompted by the assertion that Zone Minds can raise their IQ to higher levels than what the Complexity based limitation on IQ would seem to imply. My goal was to point out what was written in both sets of rules (Classic and 4th edition) to try and make sense of why I don't particularly like the concept of a neural net based computer being able to have its IQ be raised higher than what the complexity of the host computer will permit.

As a consequence of this fine tooth examination, I think I may have spotted an errata item for ROS: WILL TO LIVE. Specifically, page 24 where it gives the point costs and breakdown on Autonomous Unit and Nonvolitional Unit.

Autonomous Unit uses shorthand for the various template items, and lists AI [32] as one of the items. I had to go to GURPS ULTRATECH page 28 to spot what was contained within the shorthand of AI[32] It was "Volitional AI (+32 points)" in GURPS ULTRATECH page 28.

Problem is - the same AI [32] shorthand is also used under the Non-Volitional Unit description. What it likely SHOULD have said was "Non-Volitional AI (-38 points)". This would change the point value of a Non-Volitional Unit from 36 points as listed, to -34 points (a -38 points instead of a plus 32 points) if I'm correct in it being an error.

In any event - it turns out that there is a facet of either Non-Volitional AI and Volitional AI...

taboo trait (Complexity-limited IQ)

Best as I can understand - it means that the IQ of the character is FIXED by means of the Complexity IQ rules in GURPS ULTRATECH.

Volitional IQ formula: complexity computer = (IQ/2)+3 (presumably rounded up)
Non-Volitional IQ formula: Complexity computer = (IQ/2)+2, rounded up.

I'm going to go through the other rules sets later on, such as GURPS ROBOTS and GURPS VEHICLES to see what they have to say regards to whether or not IQ can be improved or not. I know that skill programs in GURPS ROBOTS have a complexity level associated with them based on how many skill points the program has within it. A Neural Net option to a computer permits a computer to increase its skill in a program - negating the "Can not learn" aspect of programs within a computer.

Per page 61 of GURPS CLASSIC ROBOTS, we find the following to be true:

If IQ is Complexity +3 baseline (with other options raising IQ to some degree), a robot with a complexity 5 computer, neural net option - would have an IQ of Complexity 5+3+1 (for neural net bonus). So, an IQ 9 computer that starts off with 1/2 point in a mental easy skill, would normally start off at IQ-1. Problem is, that's not the entire picture because computers have editic memory, which quadruples the value of points in a skill. A 1/2 point value, is actually equal to 2 points in the skill, or IQ+1. A mental Easy skill at IQ 9 +1 makes it a skill 10. Such a program (at 1/2 point) is a complexity 1 program. In theory, a complexity 5 computer can run a total of 10,000 such programs at the same time. It can run a 1,000 complexity 2 programs, 100 complexity 3 programs, 10 complexity 4 programs, or 1 complexity 5 program.

So, how does that break down into character terminology? Accounting for the x4 bonus for simplicity sake for Mental Easy skills:

Complexity 1 program: IQ+1
Complexity 2 program: IQ+2
Complexity 3 program: IQ+4
Complexity 4 program: IQ+5 or +6
Complexity 5 program: IQ+7 thru IQ+10

In other words, per the rules in GURPS ROBOTS, IQ doesn't change or hinted of being possible, but skills MAY upgrade through experience. DX doesn't change as that is a function of not only the complexity of the computer, but also any reflex booster.

That's my take on the rules as written, in response to those who want to state that one can change the IQ of a neural net based character from GURPS CLASSIC. GURPS 4th edition, specifically spells out that IQ can't increase as a taboo trait.
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Old 11-03-2016, 09:51 AM   #2
Darkness
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
... I'm going to go through the other rules sets later on, such as GURPS ROBOTS and GURPS VEHICLES to see what they have to say regards to whether or not IQ can be improved or not. ...
GURPS Robots, p.83:
"Robots and cyborgs cannot buy ST or HT - this is limited by the robot design. A cyborg or a robot with a neural-net or sentient brain can buy DX and IQ. ..."
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Old 11-03-2016, 11:10 AM   #3
PK
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

AI is not from GURPS Ultra-Tech; it's from p. B263. (If it had meant Volitional AI or Non-Volitional AI, it would have used those terms explicitly.) Complexity-Limited IQ is not part of AI.
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Old 11-03-2016, 12:34 PM   #4
hal
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
AI is not from GURPS Ultra-Tech; it's from p. B263. (If it had meant Volitional AI or Non-Volitional AI, it would have used those terms explicitly.) Complexity-Limited IQ is not part of AI.
Thanks for pointing that out. The coincidence of it matching the same point value for Volitional Unit is just that, a coincidence it appears.

So the question is asked: Why have Volitional Units and Non-Volitional units if AI encompasses BOTH aspects?
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Old 11-03-2016, 12:39 PM   #5
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Thanks for pointing that out. The coincidence of it matching the same point value for Volitional Unit is just that, a coincidence it appears.

So the question is asked: Why have Volitional Units and Non-Volitional units if AI encompasses BOTH aspects?
I don't understand the question. Why does the game have the distinction? Why would a culture deliberately build machines it couldn't reliably control?
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:09 PM   #6
hal
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I don't understand the question. Why does the game have the distinction? Why would a culture deliberately build machines it couldn't reliably control?
Volitional units and non-volitional units are essentially the difference between sentient and non-sentient artificial Intelligence.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:28 PM   #7
PK
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Thanks for pointing that out. The coincidence of it matching the same point value for Volitional Unit is just that, a coincidence it appears.

So the question is asked: Why have Volitional Units and Non-Volitional units if AI encompasses BOTH aspects?
Because those units are covered by their own respective templates. The AI meta-trait is nothing more than a useful shorthand for certain GURPS traits that are common to all computerized characters.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:45 PM   #8
hal
 
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Default Re: Comparing GURPS CLASSIC ROS to ROS:WILL TO LIVE

Reading the rules on Zone Minds, I noted that it has a DX attribute. GURPS VEHICLES has this to say on the topic:

"By itself, the neural-net option gives an effective IQ of Complexity + 4 for learning purposes, but no DX; the computer cannot learn DXbased skills. Combined with a robot brain, this option makes the computer semi-sentient, with limited self-initiative; however, it has no interest in anything beyond following its user’s orders – it is not “selfaware.” Treat this like a normal robot brain, but one that can learn. It has its usual DX, but its effective IQ is Complexity + 4."

So any Zone Mind that has a DX automatically has to have the Robot Brain Option, correct? The function of the Robot Brain is that it halves the number of computer programs that can be run.

Just clarifying...

Additional Question regarding DX:

It lists the DX value for the zone mind as being 11. Normal DX is calculated as Complexity/2+8. Subtracting 8 from 11 gives us 3. Doubling that gives us 6. Assuming that DX is complexity/2 rounded down, this holds true for computers built as complexity 7. A complexity 8 or 9 computer would start with a DX of 12 without the reflex co-processor - correct?

Last edited by hal; 11-03-2016 at 01:48 PM. Reason: Additional question regarding DX
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