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Old 05-09-2017, 08:32 PM   #51
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Don't like doing two posts like this, but, didn't want to keep editing that previous one.

Pink Light's Lifting LogST 35, Striking LogST of 40 would be able to pick up the van and throw it:

21 yards x 5 for ST 35, 105 yards . . . very close to the original range of 106 yards.

The damage would be:
20d for StrikingST 40 +1/die, 25d+1. Much closer to the original damage of 28d+1. While still nothing close to the (now) 71d damage that the van would inflict from a slam traveling at 210 mph, it's not so anemic that one would really look close at it.

And, if we just convert slam damage to the throwing damage for the character's ST, throwing themselves . . . that only works for vehicles, really.

Checking for a ST of 40, because Science!.
Throwing the van would be 48yd x 10 for 480 yards, which exceeds the old ST value of 380 by 100 yards.

Damage wise: The van falls into the thrust -1 category now so the old damage base would be (32d-32, becomes) 23d. For LogST the damage would be (20d-20, becomes) 15d-2, which is less than the ST 35 lifting ST. BUT, the damage also went down for the original ST as well.

At ST 50:
Range: 3,500 for both.
Damage (at thrust -2/die):
Old ST: 43d-1
LogST: 18d-2

Does anyone think that damage is too much out of whack?

Edit:
If, for a slam, the target does Thrust damage, like I had calculated before, so they do damage with a bonus per die equal to the speed/range table, let's see how that works out.

If the van moved at 105, that's a +10. It's got a LogST of 35, so it does (15d +150 (yikes!), becomes 21d+3, for 36d+3. Okay, that doesn't work.

Bu-ut if we make it a flat bonus now, a van moving 210 mph (which is still really funny in my head) would do 15d+10, or 17d+3 which is less than the thrown damage. Grr. There must be a happy medium.

But, if we do both . . . it's throwing damage modifier and the movement modifier . . . let's look.

15d +10 (movement) +15 (+1/die from throwing) 15d+25, becomes 22d.

Hey. That's close.

But, that means that the van always does 15d+15 (19d+1) in a slam, regardless of how slowly it's traveling.

So, we need to factor speed in, effectively.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-09-2017 at 08:57 PM. Reason: To add some slam ideas and fix the fact that I can't spell.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:35 AM   #52
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Don't like doing two posts like this, but, didn't want to keep editing that previous one.

Pink Light's Lifting LogST 35, Striking LogST of 40 would be able to pick up the van and throw it:

21 yards x 5 for ST 35, 105 yards . . . very close to the original range of 106 yards.

The damage would be:
20d for StrikingST 40 +1/die, 25d+1. Much closer to the original damage of 28d+1. While still nothing close to the (now) 71d damage that the van would inflict from a slam traveling at 210 mph, it's not so anemic that one would really look close at it.

And, if we just convert slam damage to the throwing damage for the character's ST, throwing themselves . . . that only works for vehicles, really.

Checking for a ST of 40, because Science!.
Throwing the van would be 48yd x 10 for 480 yards, which exceeds the old ST value of 380 by 100 yards.

Damage wise: The van falls into the thrust -1 category now so the old damage base would be (32d-32, becomes) 23d. For LogST the damage would be (20d-20, becomes) 15d-2, which is less than the ST 35 lifting ST. BUT, the damage also went down for the original ST as well.

At ST 50:
Range: 3,500 for both.
Damage (at thrust -2/die):
Old ST: 43d-1
LogST: 18d-2

Does anyone think that damage is too much out of whack?

Edit:
If, for a slam, the target does Thrust damage, like I had calculated before, so they do damage with a bonus per die equal to the speed/range table, let's see how that works out.

If the van moved at 105, that's a +10. It's got a LogST of 35, so it does (15d +150 (yikes!), becomes 21d+3, for 36d+3. Okay, that doesn't work.

Bu-ut if we make it a flat bonus now, a van moving 210 mph (which is still really funny in my head) would do 15d+10, or 17d+3 which is less than the thrown damage. Grr. There must be a happy medium.

But, if we do both . . . it's throwing damage modifier and the movement modifier . . . let's look.

15d +10 (movement) +15 (+1/die from throwing) 15d+25, becomes 22d.

Hey. That's close.

But, that means that the van always does 15d+15 (19d+1) in a slam, regardless of how slowly it's traveling.

So, we need to factor speed in, effectively .
I would think that the speed with which you can throw (or swing) something is already factored into your Thrust from Striking ST, so I don't understand why you're giving thrown objects an additional bonus of +10 per die for speed/range. It doesn't make sense for objects that leave your hands to do, what, 3 1/2x as much damage as objects you keep in hand, really.

The bottom line is, if you have ST be logarithmic for lifting, but have a linear progression (even a much more generous one than the current one) for dice of Thrust damage, then that implicitly changes the meaning of dice of damage, and you have to adjust lots of things... not just collision/Slam calculations, but probably damage and DR values for gear and vehicles and buildings as well. After all, if you keep the +1d per +4 ST, then adding 5d means the force and strength behind the blow is literally 100x as great. Even if you move to +1d per +2 ST, +5d means 10x the force behind the blow.

So, there are two solutions: either rejigger damage and DR values so that this is represented, or if you want to keep the old ones, make the damage progression for ST be logarithmic as well, at least above some level such as 16 or 20. Now, for the latter, I don't mean that for each +10 LogST you'd get 10x the damage dice... no, we're coming from a quadratic system for relating ST/damage to lifting capacity, so it would be more like 10x the damage for each +20 to LogST, 3x the damage for each +10 LogST. I'd have to noodle a bit to determine what that looks like as an actual dice progression. But once you've established that, you need to stick with it.

Last edited by vitruvian; 05-10-2017 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:34 PM   #53
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
It doesn't make sense for objects that leave your hands to do, what, 3 1/2x as much damage as objects you keep in hand, really.
I think I may have figured out the problem. Let me think this out:

That only applies to super-strong beings, normal beings don't see that in the throwing rules. A ST 15 character could throw a 20 lb stone 10 yards and would do 1d+2 cr. with it. They could weild a 5 lb mace for 2d+4 (3d) cr. Even a ST 20 character with a 40 lb rock could throw it 11 yards and would only do 2d+1 with it, that same mace would do a whopping 3d+5 (4d+1) cr. Heck, with karate bonuses, the ST 20 person would do more in a punch (2d+2, thank you +2/die).

The 20 lb rock would have 20 HP (just from off of the chart), and, if it were slamming, it would do 2d, so, it's not too far off. The 40lb rock would also do 2d, so it's getting a "bonus" from being thrown. So, those damages aren't too far off from melee, punching damage. It's not until we start getting into the large ST damages that it starts picking up.

A ST 32 throwing a 105lb rock, could thorw it 25 yards and would do 4d in a throw, which is still less than a solid punch with karate bonuses (3d+1, -1 for punch, +6, for 4d+3).

So, even in a "worse case" scenario, if you're getting a damage bonus from your melee skill, you'll be doing more damage than your "basic" thrusting ST will reflect.

Because the throwing damage is based off of Thrust damage, as are melee skill damage bonuses, they're not actually out of whack.

Okay, Pink Light only has Brawling at DX (she's new at this), so she doesn't get a damage bonus, and thus, does 8d-1 when she punches someone. But, throwing a car, for 10d+1 makes sense. When she actually learns how to punch, she can do that much damage as well (well, okay, 10d, but still).

Edit:
A SM+6 Katana with a Min ST of 110 (Min LogST 31) would do 11d+1 cut, 10d+2 imp.
(I went and picked up Low Tech Companion 2.)

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-10-2017 at 04:58 PM. Reason: Clarified a statement; added scaled Katana data
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