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Old 09-17-2007, 10:09 AM   #1
whswhs
 
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Default Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

I'm playing a character who has one level of Extra Attack. Because she often goes up against foes with ranged weapons, she's taken to throwing things at them: For preference, small steel balls at the weight that gives her max damage.

But once she throws one, she's disarmed, and needs to take out another. The GM has been letting her use one of her two attacks for a Ready maneuver, so she can throw as one action, draw a weapon as the next action, and repeat in the next turn. In effect, this gives her the equivalent of Fast-Draw (Rock) as a free side effect of Extra Attack. And it means that if she eventually actually learns Fast-Draw (Rock) she'll be able to throw two missiles in every turn, or at least every turn where she makes her Fast-Draw roll.

Is this legal as a use of Extra Attack? If not, is the benefit of Extra Attack essentially negated whenever she throws things, holding her down to one throw every other turn? Or is there some intermediate solution that gives her some payoff for taking Extra Attack?

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Old 09-17-2007, 10:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

No, it is not a legal use of Extra attack, Extra attack only give you an attack on attack manuvers (Attack, Move and attack, and All out Attack), and does nothing on other manuvers; and Ready is a separate manuver
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Kromm has opined on this one in the past. In short, not the same thing -- as Rogue says.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Specifically, there is no reason you couldn't use your normal action to ready the orb and then your extra attack to throw it.

But, as Rogue has said (and Kromm), Extra Attack is just an extra attack maneuver, not an extra action for the round.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
Specifically, there is no reason you couldn't use your normal action to ready the orb and then your extra attack to throw it.
Actually, that's incorrect. Extra Attack only works if you're already taking an Attack, Move and Attack, or All-Out Attack manuever. You can't, say, Ready and then use Extra Attack to get in an attack anyway.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:25 PM   #6
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen
Actually, that's incorrect. Extra Attack only works if you're already taking an Attack, Move and Attack, or All-Out Attack manuever. You can't, say, Ready and then use Extra Attack to get in an attack anyway.
I don't think that's right. Extra Attack doesn't say you HAVE to make an attack to get to use your Extra Attack. The only thing I see that implies this is the first full paragraph on B.54, but it is specifically talking about Extra Attacks, not your basic attack.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

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Originally Posted by Bookman
Kromm has opined on this one in the past. In short, not the same thing -- as Rogue says.
Okay, I've read the discussion you cite.

It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.

Or I can take turn one to ready a rock in my right hand, turn two to ready one in my left hand, and turn three to throw both? That's gone from two rocks thrown in four turns to two rocks thrown in three turns. I used to be able to throw three rocks in six turns; now I can throw four. That's only one-third of an extra attack.

Or I buy Extra Attack and Extra Ready. Now I actually have doubled my rate of fire—but for 50 points, not 25. The point cost seems excessive for throwing things.

Conversely, say that I take Extra Attack and Extra Ready, and my main weapons are a rapier and main-gauche. I've spent 50 points to be able to arm myself fully in one turn and strike with both the next turn. But the extra ready isn't worth nearly as much, I don't think; I'll strike every turn in melee, but I won't draw weapons nearly as often as that, unless I'm a total klutz.

In either case, it seems that at a minimum Extra Ready ought to cost significantly less than Extra Attack, if it's allowed at all.

As a side question, what about Extra Parry? If I can have an advantage that lets me attack with weapon A and with weapon B, can I have an advantage that lets me parry with both? That one might actually be WORTH 25 points!

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Old 09-17-2007, 06:58 PM   #8
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.
Check GURPS Martial Arts, specifically pages 119-121 for its options like Rapid Strike with Thrown Weapons and Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons. Also check out the rules for multiple fast-draws on page 103. They are tailor-made for what you're ultimately trying to accomplish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
As a side question, what about Extra Parry? If I can have an advantage that lets me attack with weapon A and with weapon B, can I have an advantage that lets me parry with both? That one might actually be WORTH 25 points!
You'd pay 25 points for one extra parry at -0 and call that worth 25 points? You can buy Trained By A Master and half your parry penalty from -4 to -2, or -2 to -1 for fencing weapons, for 30 points...and get lots of benefits on top of that. Or Weapon Master (two weapons, for main gauche and rapier) for 25, for the same parry benefit.

Maybe you're thinking of something different than I am. You already are talking a two-weapon fighter with two fencing weapons, so you've got two "counts" down from -0 parry to defend yourself. With TBAM and Combat Reflexes and a good skill you should be able to defend with near-maximum skill as many times as you can reasonably be attacked. I run a game with a TBAM fencer with Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Parry 1. I've seen her attacked successfully 7 times in a turn and only "sweat" that last parry at a mere 12-13 or so.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog
Check GURPS Martial Arts, specifically pages 119-121 for its options like Rapid Strike with Thrown Weapons and Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons. Also check out the rules for multiple fast-draws on page 103. They are tailor-made for what you're ultimately trying to accomplish.
The trouble with multiple fast-draws is that the character doesn't have Fast-Draw skill. She's working on learning it, but I don't have the GM's agreement that she's put in enough time yet.

Rapid Strike with thrown weapons doesn't fit the image of what she's doing. Those aren't tiny little ball bearings; they're 9-lb. steel balls, which comes to about the size of a softball, I think—they have to be that big to get the maximum throwing damage. And La Gata's a 93-pound teenage girl. No way she's grabbing a handful of steel balls for a Rapid Strike or Rapid Fire.

Her abilities don't come from martial arts training, but from an alien virus. She's just started her first course in karate. She can't possibly acquire either Trained by a Master or Weapon Master in the expected duration of the campaign. And I'm not sure I want her to, anyway; it's a drastic change of character theme.

Really, I'm just trying to build a speedster whose basic idiom is obscenely high DX and superb reflexes rather than incredibly fast movement (she can sprint 48 mph, but that's not even freeway speed). I'd be willing to ask the GM to retrofit Extra Ready—she could duplicate her established style by readying with her left hand while she throws with her right and vice versa—but it really doesn't seem to me that Extra Ready ought to cost 25 points per level, for reasons stated in a previous post.

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Old 09-17-2007, 07:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.
Martial Arts lets you Rapid Fire with thrown weapons. Basically the Fast Draw eliminates the ready and it's just a straight -6 like melee attacks. For that matter, MA allows you to rapid fire for more than one extra attack even with thrown things.

Spending 25 (or 30 since I would argue that Multi-Strike is required to reuse the same hand), is a lot like spending 24 points for a +6 to skill. High skill gives you greater flexibility with that weapon while Extra Attack gives you the option to mix and match your various striking options.

Bottom line, I don't think it's unbalanced to allow a double throw if they can make Fast Draws to eliminate the readies. It's already allowed for rapid fire throwing.
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