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Old 02-09-2008, 01:04 PM   #61
mook
 
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

I've reverted Arthur's maneuver in Melee Three, Turn 3 back to a Parry as a result of the discussion in the other thread.

This makes me happy as I feel like it's one more nuance of the combat system that is now more definitive in my mind, a major reason I started posting examples in the first place. Yay! =)
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:54 PM   #62
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Close Combat 2 / Turn 2:

Shouldn't Red be doing more than 1d+2 damage (listed as his normal kick above) if he dropped 1 FP on a Mighty Blow?
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:55 PM   #63
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc
Close Combat 2 / Turn 2:

Shouldn't Red be doing more than 1d+2 damage (listed as his normal kick above) if he dropped 1 FP on a Mighty Blow?
Oops, absolutely right - thank you! Fixed.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:37 PM   #64
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Mook,

One more comment on the tactics in Close Combat 2, Judo vs Karate.

Once Arthur has Zach thrown, he jumps in and goes for a neck grapple, then applies a Neck Snap.

Looking at Arthur's stats (as a player should do), with ST12, DX16, and Judo-20, he's not going to choose grappling maneuvers that work off of his ST. In most cases, whatever technique is being applied is resisted by the better of ST or HT, and maybe even ST, HT, DX, or the best skill!

So, Arthur will normally choose techniques that do their effects based preferentially on Judo, DX, and ST in that order.

In this particular case, even if he wants to really do Zach in, the technique he's looking for should be based on Judo. Choke Hold in Martial Arts allows it to be applied from the front; as a GM it's your call if you allow a stunned guy who's prone to resist Arthur's jumping on him and applying a Choke Hold! Another technique that you could use is Arm Lock, which Arthur can use by grappling Zach's arm and then applying the lock at a significant advantage. This one's in Basic. Arthur goes prone and Grapples Zach's limb in turn 6. Arthur can expect to win the QC for Arm Lock by an average of 6. This will inflict 6 points of crushing damage to Zach's arm. He can do it again the next turn, crippling the arm. Assuming Zach doesn't pass out or something, Arthur should acquire the OTHER arm, or somehow roll to acquire the neck, and go for a Judo-based choke, or spend two turns to cripple the other arm. the choke is the most realistically lethal technique available in detail in Basic, I think.

Using Martial Arts, there's an explicit Eye Gouging technique that is based off of Judo; there's no reason you can't target the eyes ANYWAY and try and inflict some damage, even with Basic Set.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:52 PM   #65
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

One more from Close Combat 2:

Zach chooses his Hit Location: Face/Kick when he's on the ground with his neck grappled, and scores a hit on Arthur.

Having just tried a bunch of situations with my wife (who happens to also be the same rank as me in martial arts), I don't see how a person who's prone and grappled (in GURPS terms, it means someone's achieved pretty solid control of the neck/head area) by the head can pull off a kick to the face.

I can see a Knee Strike working to the head, but not really a boot. From mount position, done properly, I could hardly get my foot to my wife's face, and I'm BENDY. From side mount, same thing. From upper side (again, her advantage), someone even more flexible than I am might be able to get it, but again more likely a knee strike then an actual kick.

Seems like some sort of defense bonus should be allowed for having this kind of control over someone. Still, not RAW, but it seems a lot easier to parry somoene's attacks when, in GURPS terms, you've successfully achieved a large measure of control over their body parts.
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Old 02-09-2008, 09:11 PM   #66
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

I'm not very happy with Close Combat Two, will probably rewrite big chunks of it tomorrow. The kick to the face does seem a bit generous for someone prone and stunned lol, not sure what I was smoking there - though it doesn't actually seem illegal by RAW, I'll probably just change it to a punch to sidestep the issue altogether.

I could tell the Neck Snap wasn't exactly optimal for Arthur's low-strength Judo, but went with it anyway - but an Arm Lock sounds a lot better (pretty vicious actually!), I'll go with that. (Choke Hold would be even better maybe, but it's a bit fuzzy how Arthur would get behind Zach etc., I'm trying to keep things as absolutely black and white as possible).

One question on Judo throws though - I assumed, and wrote the example as, once you grapple and throw someone, you lose the grapple, but I can't find an explicit mention either way. I know I've seen Judo throws where the target remains held even on the ground, so I'm not sure how to "rule" in the examples.
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Old 02-09-2008, 09:36 PM   #67
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mook
I'm not very happy with Close Combat Two, will probably rewrite big chunks of it tomorrow. The kick to the face does seem a bit generous for someone prone and stunned lol, not sure what I was smoking there - though it doesn't actually seem illegal by RAW, I'll probably just change it to a punch to sidestep the issue altogether.
No, no. My comment was that it didn't really cut the believability threshold for me...BUT...unless someone comes in and points out that it's illegal, it's probably Zach's best move (unless there really IS something better).

Quote:
I could tell the Neck Snap wasn't exactly optimal for Arthur's low-strength Judo, but went with it anyway - but an Arm Lock sounds a lot better (pretty vicious actually!), I'll go with that. (Choke Hold would be even better maybe, but it's a bit fuzzy how Arthur would get behind Zach etc., I'm trying to keep things as absolutely black and white as possible).
When you throw someone, depending on the configuration of the two of you, you can throw so they land on their face, their side, or their back. Given the twisty nature of resisting opponents, side is probably pretty often. One thing you can do is use the Arm Lock to maneuver them to their face-down position, and then apply a Choke. I'd rule this as a special case of a Pin, but it's not RAW. A Judo roll (Arm Lock) resisted by HT or ST to roll him over, then go for the Choke Hold.

Or just say that since you can throw your opponent into any hex you wish, you can also throw him into any position you wish...and you wish to throw him face down. Since he's stunned, he's still presenting his back, so you go in for the Choke hold.

Quote:
One question on Judo throws though - I assumed, and wrote the example as, once you grapple and throw someone, you lose the grapple, but I can't find an explicit mention either way. I know I've seen Judo throws where the target remains held even on the ground, so I'm not sure how to "rule" in the examples.
You'd need to rule it, so there are no true RAW for this.

But...I'd say something like:

If you make the roll by 4+, you keep the grip, or...
If you take a -4 penalty to the attack roll, you keep the grip

Note that you can AoA for the +4, which exactly cancels out the above...that's why I set it. If you AoA and just dump him, you get +4; but if you try and retain the grapple, it's harder.

Again, not RAW, but in my art we practice most throws seeking to maintain contact...but sometimes we lose it accidentally, and other throws are on purpose.
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:18 AM   #68
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Good suggestions, I'd probably use those in my own game.

I know I keep balking at anything not 100% RAW, but I really, really want these examples to be "this is how GURPS Basic works as written", not "this is how Mook runs GURPS".

If there's anything that seems 'fuzzy' or ambiguous, and I can't find clarification on it here on the boards, I simply won't include it in an example - take the easy way out.
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:59 AM   #69
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mook
If there's anything that seems 'fuzzy' or ambiguous, and I can't find clarification on it here on the boards, I simply won't include it in an example - take the easy way out.
It would be great if you'd keep a running list of these issues, perhaps organized as a global appendix with a reference to each example where an issue was discovered. I'd find it very helpful to know what isn't covered by RAW, and it might provide great fodder for a Designer's Notes article or FAQ entries.

Great effort, BTW, and thanks for doing it.
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:08 AM   #70
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

This site is just great. Very nice examples outlining the basic principles of combat in GURPS. It would be great if you produce PDFs with the examples with proper layout so we could print and show our players these examples. Thanks again for putting so much labor and care in your site.
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