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Old 02-13-2008, 11:21 PM   #91
mook
 
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Lots of responses!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Btw. in this example (Melee 1), in turn 2, when Arthur Green parries. You might want to note that he could make a retreating parry for +1 to skill. I see no reason why he shouldn't do so as they both have the same reach of weapons there is no drawback, and he would increase his chance to parry by 12,5%! (from 9 to 10)).
The same goes for all the dodges. I have never seen a GURPS combat were people do not retreat at every possible chance they get (unless of course they face someone with longer reach).
Yeah, about the only reason I didn't add a Retreat to every defense was to keep it a little simpler to start off with, being the 'first' example of Melee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Turn 3. You note his arm is crippled because of the Accumulated Wounds rule. You should note that this is an Optional rule, not everyone use it, I don't. If your examples are supposed to be a help for newbies I don't think you should include optional rules, and if you do, you should clearly note them as such.
Not that it matters for the rest of the combat, but you might also note that when he is 'knocked down' he drops his mace. This means he can't use it to parry against the next attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Spending FP for Extra Effort in combat is an optional rule.
Fair nits to pick - I'll clarify a bit. (I've purposely used as many optional rules from Basic as I can get my hands on, but it is a good idea to clearly label them such).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Turn 4. The prone Zach Red has a dodge of "0". This is not true. Shock does not give a penalty to Dodge (see page 419 "Shock" and p.421 "Temporary Attribute Penalties"). Had he not managed to succeed his HT Stun-check however, he would have been at -4 from that.
Oops - rats. Hopefully that's the only place I did that, but I'll have to check 'em all. (EDIT: it's not, I've already found others)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Also I am unsure if you should halve dodge before or after modifiers. I think you are right, that it is before. So it would be 8/2 -3 = 1... not much better than before, ehe. Hmm I wonder if being prone prevents you from making a retreating dodge.... I'm gonna start a new topic about that.
Not definite on the halving and modifiers, hopefully someone else can chime in on that - you can definitely Retreat while Prone though. (B377)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Melee 3.
You might want to note that their dodges are lowered by 1 because of their encumbrance, seeing as you include the encumbrance in the example.
Good idea - I'll add a footnote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Turn 1. I think that you should note that he gets -4 to his attack for the 'Move and Attack', it would matter if he only had 11 or 12 in skill.
Right again - I didn't bother putting it in, since the skill capped at 9, but you're right, the more info the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Also, why is he running all the way into Reach 1? when his weapon has Reach 2 and the opponent do not?
Um - cuz he's a berserker? Yeah, that's it - it's not because I didn't feel like making a new graphic at the time lol. I may not change it, but if I don't I'll at least add a note about it to the text pointing out it's sub-par tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Unarmed combat 1.
You note "As this was a hit to the Face sufficient to cause a Shock penalty, Zach would normally check for Knockdown and Stunning; however, he is already prone and suffering Stun."
You should still roll as a Failure by 5 or more means he passes out.
Excellent point - fix incoming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Unarmed combat 2.
Turn four. You might want to note that not only can Arthur Green not parry because he is using his hands... he can't not make a retreating dodge either (unless he lets go). Actually even if you do not want to include this, I think you should rephrase it. right now it sounds as by the rules, he can't parry as he is grappling with both arms. He could chose to parry with one arm, letting go of Zach with that arm, while maintaining a grip with the other.
This one I think is correct - "Note that Arthur can not Parry as he is Grappling with both hands; he can let go with one or both hands as a free action, but only on his turn (B370-B371)." If I'm reading B370 correctly, letting go of one or both hands is only a free action on your turn; later, in Turn Six, Arthur does let go with one hand, on his turn, so that he can Parry Zach's next attack(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Just wanted to add in that I really, really like your examples. I think it's a great initiative and a great tool for newbies. I plan on sending a couple of new players in my current campaign your way so that they get a better understanding on the combat rules.
Good to hear Maz. Just trying to do my part to make easing new players into GURPS as easy as possible!
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:34 AM   #92
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

All of the corrections/clarifications mentioned in the post above have been made.

I also lowered Arthur's Parry in Melee Three, Turn Three by -4, as he is trying to Parry a Morningstar (Flail, B274).
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:18 AM   #93
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mook
Um - cuz he's a berserker? Yeah, that's it - it's not because I didn't feel like making a new graphic at the time lol. I may not change it, but if I don't I'll at least add a note about it to the text pointing out it's sub-par tactics.
Hehe it's a fair point. It's not really important. It's one of the points that only matters when people really start going into strategic combat. So Just leave it. :)



Quote:
Originally Posted by mook
This one I think is correct - "Note that Arthur can not Parry as he is Grappling with both hands; he can let go with one or both hands as a free action, but only on his turn (B370-B371)." If I'm reading B370 correctly, letting go of one or both hands is only a free action on your turn; later, in Turn Six, Arthur does let go with one hand, on his turn, so that he can Parry Zach's next attack(s).
Oh right, seems like you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mook
Good to hear Maz. Just trying to do my part to make easing new players into GURPS as easy as possible!
Yeah, GURPS can seem a bit overwhelming for new players, so this is a great tool.
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:55 AM   #94
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

I didn't have time to look at the Range combat examples yesterday. But now that I had I have a few comments to those as well:

Ranged Combat 1.
Turn Seven. Zach's roll against Knockdown/Stunning should be at -5 as it is a major wound to the vitals (p.420).


Ranged Combat 2.
Turn 1. As noted on p.412 Scopes are variable unless otherwise noted. Meaning that he would get +1 from the scope on the first turn, +2 on turn 2 and +3 on turn 3.
So it would be:
Turn 1: 6+1 = +7
Turn 2: +2 = +9
Turn 3: +2 = +11
The result is the same but as the book clearly states that Variable is the default assumption I think it's better include that in your example.


"Zach's HP are reduced to -110 (and he has a shock penalty of -4)"
LoL, nice touch, hehehe.

You could include a single line or two about what the result would have been had Arthur missed his attack roll by 1 (hitting the torso). Just to emphasize the difference between a headshot and a hit against an armoured torso.


Ranged Combat 3.
Turn 3. When Zach fires his last shots at Arthur he should gain an additional -2 from Arthur being prone.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:14 PM   #95
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

I'm still enjoying the combat examples and have already sent one of my players to look at Mook's site.

I think I have another nit, but this time I'm not sure I'm right. In Close Cbt Example #3, Green suffers -4 shock due to Red's first turn attacks and therefore has the shock penalty during his first action (Ready (broadsword)). However, Green is still listed as having the same shock penalty during his second turn action (Ready (knife)). My understanding is that the shock from turn #1 should go away before Green's 2nd turn action.

-- The Bearded One
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:45 PM   #96
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bearded One
I'm still enjoying the combat examples and have already sent one of my players to look at Mook's site.

I think I have another nit, but this time I'm not sure I'm right. In Close Cbt Example #3, Green suffers -4 shock due to Red's first turn attacks and therefore has the shock penalty during his first action (Ready (broadsword)). However, Green is still listed as having the same shock penalty during his second turn action (Ready (knife)). My understanding is that the shock from turn #1 should go away before Green's 2nd turn action.

-- The Bearded One
You are right. also later on:


In Turn 3. Arthur makes a retreating parry with his knife and gets +3 thanks to his retreat. He should only get +1 as a knife is not a fencing weapon. Only fencing parries gets +3, normal parries only get +1. Arthur would be much better off making a retreating dodge.


When Arthur then takes 9 damage to vitals this is a major wound against vitals, so he should roll knockdown/stunning at -5.
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:44 PM   #97
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

In Melee 2, Turn 2 Arthur Green suffers shock penalty (Zach waited and hit successfully).
Then, on Turn 3 Arthur is penalized again (for that same hit).

I guess the shock should not affect him on Turn 3 anymore?

-Cursed
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Last edited by cursed; 02-14-2008 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:50 PM   #98
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
I didn't have time to look at the Range combat examples yesterday. But now that I had I have a few comments to those as well:

Ranged Combat 1.
Turn Seven. Zach's roll against Knockdown/Stunning should be at -5 as it is a major wound to the vitals (p.420).
Damn, I always forget that one - fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Ranged Combat 2.
Turn 1. As noted on p.412 Scopes are variable unless otherwise noted. Meaning that he would get +1 from the scope on the first turn, +2 on turn 2 and +3 on turn 3.
Actually, I think I was mistaken on Scopes when I was writing them that way - scroll back to posts #81 and #83 in this thread for more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
You could include a single line or two about what the result would have been had Arthur missed his attack roll by 1 (hitting the torso). Just to emphasize the difference between a headshot and a hit against an armoured torso.
That'll make a great Ranged Four or Five. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Ranged Combat 3.
Turn 3. When Zach fires his last shots at Arthur he should gain an additional -2 from Arthur being prone.
Good catch - fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bearded One
I'm still enjoying the combat examples and have already sent one of my players to look at Mook's site.

I think I have another nit, but this time I'm not sure I'm right. In Close Cbt Example #3, Green suffers -4 shock due to Red's first turn attacks and therefore has the shock penalty during his first action (Ready (broadsword)). However, Green is still listed as having the same shock penalty during his second turn action (Ready (knife)). My understanding is that the shock from turn #1 should go away before Green's 2nd turn action.

-- The Bearded One
Absolutely right - fixed. (Glad to hear the site is useful too!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
You are right. also later on:

In Turn 3. Arthur makes a retreating parry with his knife and gets +3 thanks to his retreat. He should only get +1 as a knife is not a fencing weapon. Only fencing parries gets +3, normal parries only get +1. Arthur would be much better off making a retreating dodge.

When Arthur then takes 9 damage to vitals this is a major wound against vitals, so he should roll knockdown/stunning at -5.
Fixed, and fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cursed
In Melee 2, Turn 2 Arthur Green suffers shock penalty (Zach waited and hit successfully).
Then, on Turn 3 Arthur is penalized again (for that same hit).

I guess he shock should not affect him on Turn 3 anymore?

-Cursed
Thanks Cursed - fixed.

Thanks again all for taking the time to read these over - I'm beginning to think I got more wrong than right!
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:29 AM   #99
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Hi, since I'm a noob regarding combat, i'd like to ask you one thing.
The description of deceptive attack says, that you have a penalty to your skill, when you make that attack. So could you point me out to the rule that says if your parrying is unaffected by your deceptive attack?

thx in advance.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:31 AM   #100
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by congo
Hi, since I'm a noob regarding combat, i'd like to ask you one thing.
The description of deceptive attack says, that you have a penalty to your skill, when you make that attack. So could you point me out to the rule that says if your parrying is unaffected by your deceptive attack?

thx in advance.
Your Active Defences are unaffected by your own Deceptive Attacks. The Active Defences of your opponents suffer a -1 for every -2 penalty you take on your own attack.

I'm not sure that there's a page reference for this, it's just that there's nothing in the description of Deceptive Attack to suggest that your defences should suffer.
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