Rolling on the River...

[jason taylor]

To most Anglo-Saxons the Russian navy is best known for the fact that John Paul Jones served in it as a mercenary as well as for the fact that it's proudest ship was commanded by a great officer with the proud Russian name of Sean Connery, but was finnally tracked down by the shy-but-brilliant analyst Alec Baldwin.
The fact is Russia has never done all that well at sea, and indeed has never really needed to. But Russia has a fine tradition of fresh-water warfare.
During World War II the Red Navy prowled up and down the long rivers doing raids, insertions and exstractions, minor amphibious assaults and generally making life miserable for the Fascist Pigs. The Red Navy played an important part in the destruction of Army Group Center. The Germans who had never really conceived of such a thing before were completely outclassed in fresh water even though the Kreigsmarine did try to keep it's end up.
The unique setting is a great idea for an RPG. It has the advantage of tremendous variety. The PCs can spend time bringing supplies to Stalingrad, render assistance to the partisans holeing up in the marshes, go on long campaigns and in between make mayhem just for the heck of it. The setting also gives the weird benefit of being able to play through the entire Great Patriotic War-and actually survive which would be difficult in the infantry and armor.
As a side note the US Navy spent a bit of time in riverine campaigning in the reconquest of the Phillipines. I believe there was also some in the CBI theater.

[sgtcallistan]

Try the book; 'The Fleet that had to Die' by John Hough. The tale of the Russian fleet/s that sailed most of the way around the world from Russia to Japan in 1905. I'ts full of rpg-possibilities.

A 'Heart of Darkness' / Wierd War II campaign set on the Czernavoda river from Costanza into Rumania late in the war could be fascinating; upriver into Transylvania...

An all-action campaign built around the 'Glissany' Russian fast attack boats used on the rivers around Stalingrad and along the other great rivers - I am so tempted...

[Michele]

I'd like to add that while many Soviet rivers are hugely wide, some players might prefer even wider expanses. In that case, they may still get the best of the two worlds: Lake Ladoga (p. W:FH10). It's as roomy as a sea, but you won't find big warships there, which makes each torpedo boat much more valuable than in a sea (where any old destroyer is a threat to a torpedo boat).

Note that Axis powers managed to put afloat some contenders on that lake – including Italy (p. W:GL35)!

Once the players feel that they would like something different, it might be wintertime. The river is frozen over, so the boats can't be used – but the sailors still are those who know the area like the back of their hands, so they are assigned as guides to some special troops ordered to raid across the river; skiers, for instance, or an aerosanyi unit (p. W:MP32)!

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Michele

I'd like to add that while many Soviet rivers are hugely wide, some players might prefer even wider expanses. In that case, they may still get the best of the two worlds: Lake Ladoga (p. W:FH10). It's as roomy as a sea, but you won't find big warships there, which makes each torpedo boat much more valuable than in a sea (where any old destroyer is a threat to a torpedo boat).

Note that Axis powers managed to put afloat some contenders on that lake – including Italy (p. W:GL35)!

Once the players feel that they would like something different, it might be wintertime. The river is frozen over, so the boats can't be used – but the sailors still are those who know the area like the back of their hands, so they are assigned as guides to some special troops ordered to raid across the river; skiers, for instance, or an aerosanyi unit (p. W:MP32)!

How wide exactly are Russian rivers? Are any wide enough that one could be safe from infantry fire from the shore?

[Michele]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

How wide exactly are Russian rivers? Are any wide enough that one could be safe from infantry fire from the shore?

...Exactly?
That depends on the river, doesn't it? It also much depends on the season, since in spring, the rivers are swollen, and thereby made wider, by the thaw. It also stands to reason that the same river will be much wider close to its mouth rather than in its upper course, no?
Additionally, some rivers were dammed, for instance the Dnieper. When this is done, the river remains a river, but upstream of the dam, it actually takes the shape of an elongated lake.
So for instance the lower course of the Dnieper could easily put 2 or 3 kms between the shores – but maybe 7 or 10 in the lake-like reservoirs upstream of the dams.
RP hook: the heroes are merrily rolling on such a "lake" in their boat, when somebody (maybe their own side!) pulls the plug, er, blows up the dam downstream... oops. Much stronger currents for quite a while, and the lake shrinks...
The Dvina, on the other hand, might be 200-m wide.
An entirely different problem is offered by places like the Pripet marshes, of course.

When it comes to small arms fire, anyway, one has to distinguish between being completely safe even from stray bullets, and being safe from effective aimed fire; as we all know, those weapons' technical range went far beyond their practical effective range. If the river is 1-km wide, hugging one shore is reasonably safe from rifle fire from the other side, but an LMG gunner might get lucky, and an emplaced HMG might be a problem. I think.

[Darkwalker]

The effective range of an MG42/59 is given at 1100 meters firing form the tripod. And tripods are part of the "gear in the truck" so dug-in forces likely have them. Given that the MG42 is the same weapon with a slightly stronger ammo (7.92x57 vs 7.62x51) anything within 1200m from the shore can be engaged by dug-in german forces. Maximum range of the bullet is given at 3600 meters.

98K and G43 rifles use the same cartridge from a similar barrel length/with a similar V0 so ranges should be similar. Aimed fire ranges are shorter due to greater felt recoil.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Michele

...Exactly?
That depends on the river, doesn't it? It also much depends on the season, since in spring, the rivers are swollen, and thereby made wider, by the thaw. It also stands to reason that the same river will be much wider close to its mouth rather than in its upper course, no?
Additionally, some rivers were dammed, for instance the Dnieper. When this is done, the river remains a river, but upstream of the dam, it actually takes the shape of an elongated lake.
So for instance the lower course of the Dnieper could easily put 2 or 3 kms between the shores – but maybe 7 or 10 in the lake-like reservoirs upstream of the dams.
RP hook: the heroes are merrily rolling on such a "lake" in their boat, when somebody (maybe their own side!) pulls the plug, er, blows up the dam downstream... oops. Much stronger currents for quite a while, and the lake shrinks...
The Dvina, on the other hand, might be 200-m wide.
An entirely different problem is offered by places like the Pripet marshes, of course.

When it comes to small arms fire, anyway, one has to distinguish between being completely safe even from stray bullets, and being safe from effective aimed fire; as we all know, those weapons' technical range went far beyond their practical effective range. If the river is 1-km wide, hugging one shore is reasonably safe from rifle fire from the other side, but an LMG gunner might get lucky, and an emplaced HMG might be a problem. I think.

I don't so much mean stray shots. It's not "contributing to normal wastage" I am wondering about, so much as, "severely interfering with operations." So it is nice to know that it can be done.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by sgtcallistan

Try the book; 'The Fleet that had to Die' by John Hough. The tale of the Russian fleet/s that sailed most of the way around the world from Russia to Japan in 1905. I'ts full of rpg-possibilities.

A 'Heart of Darkness' / Wierd War II campaign set on the Czernavoda river from Costanza into Rumania late in the war could be fascinating; upriver into Transylvania...

I see this would take a weird twist and I'd add a touch of "Apocalypse Now"... I'd just point out that by the final years of the war, a rather mundane threat existed on the Balkan rivers, too: air-dropped sea mines delivered by British bombers.

[The Colonel]

Since this is looking a bit like the WW2 equivalent of armoured train warfare, you could also introduce a sort of waterborne anabasis on the part of either a Russian boat in 1941 or something Axis in 1944-45.
Anyone know anything about riverine warfare in China in the 1930s (for example)?

[jason taylor]

The idea was actually given me from "Clash of Titans" by Walter Boyne. Unfortunatly there is little actual information in the book. Does anyone know of any English language sources of information?