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#1 |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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It's been a long time that I've been wanting to change the "turn" in RPGs to better reflect the realism of different speeds. For example, the Flash doest do 1 attack, let his enemy also attack once and then launches 1 billion attacks before next turn.
So, it has been many years I've been wanting to introduce a measure of "Velocity", which hasnt been easy at all. Here's how Im building it, along with a few considerations: Altered Time Rate = 100/10 = 10CP / +/- 1
Striking ST = 5CP/lvl
2 × (DX for Combat) - GURPS Power Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes
Final Cost of Velocity: +/- 60CP/lvl (63, rounded to 60 for simplicity) +/- 0.6 CP per 0.01 Velocity (yes, you keep and use all fractions) Velocity = (Per + 4×DX)/5 Per Contribution: 12 CP/lvl DX Contribution: 48CP/lvl OR Velocity = (Per + DX)/2 Per Contribution: 30CP/lvl DX Contribution: 30CP/lvl OR Velocity = (2×Per + 3×DX)/5 Per Contribution: 24CP/lvl DX Contribution: 36CP/lvl
Increasing Per or DX by those huge amount however may not be the best option. Therefore it may be best to modify this to reduce the impacts of attributes (therefore the costs). Therefore: Velocity = 5 + (Per + 4×DX)/10 Per Contribution: 6CP/lvl DX Contribution: 24CP/lvl OR Velocity = 5 + (Per + DX)/4 Per Contribution: 15CP/lvl DX Contribution: 15CP/lvl OR Velocity = 5 + (2×Per + 3×DX)/10 Per Contribution: 12/lvl DX Contribution: 18/lvl
That however still do not seem to suffice, due to the high prices that this would bring to the Attributes, therefore it's interesting to reduce it even further: Velocity = 8 + (Per + 4×DX)/25 Per Contribution: 2.4CP/lvl DX Contribution: 9.6CP/lvl OR Velocity = 8 + (Per + DX)/10 Per Contribution: 6CP/lvl DX Contribution: 6CP/lvl OR Velocity = 8 + (2×Per + 3×DX)/25 Per Contribution: 4.8CP/lvl DX Contribution: 7.2CP/lvl
Now those values are more manageable; considering that DX earns a discount of -5 (bellow), it's interesting to keep DX as the main contributor, and we can round values for commodity, therefore the math for Velocity and the increased costs of attributes would be (already with the -5 discount for DX) Velocity = 8 + (Per + 4×DX)/25 Per: extra +2/lvl (New cost Per: +/- 7/lvl) DX: extra +5/lvl (New Cost DX: +/- 25/lvl) OR Velocity = 8 + (2×Per + 3×DX)/25 Per: extra +5/lvl (New cost Per: +/- 10/lvl) DX: extra +2/lvl (New Cost DX: +/- 22/lvl) For this to work better, it would be ideal to separate IQ from Per, reducing the price of IQ from 20 to 15, otherwise the increased price of Per would add to IQ too. If you dont wanna deal with that, there's the option of using only DX, therefore: Velocity = 8 + DX/5 DX Contribution: 12CP/lvl DX: extra +7/lvl (New Cost DX: +/- 27/lvl) Basic Speed and Basic Moviment Reformulated So, with Velocity we just ditch Basic Speed altogheter, which inherits some discounts, and also comes the need to reformulate Basic Move. Therefore: Basic Speed (no Basic Move) 15CP/lvl = (DX + HT)/4 DX Contribution: 3.75CP/lvl HT Contribution: 3.75CP/lvl Basic Move (Regular) = (HT + DX)/4 (drop fractions) +/- 5/lvl HT Contribution: 1.25CP/lvl DX Contribution: 1.25CP/lvl Basic Move (Reformulated) = HT/2 (dont drop fractions) +/- 5/lvl HT Contribution: 2.5CP/lvl
Without Basic Speed, this means that DX and HT get 3.75 points cheaper. With Basic Move no longer having DX, it means that DX gets a further discount of 1.25, for a total of 5 points cheaper. HT however being the only controller for Basic Move gets 1.25CP more expensive, but with the discount from B.Speed gives a total discount of 2.5CP. Therefore: DX: -5CP HT: -2.5CP Now, since HT is too good and already too cheap, but also for simplicity sake, instead of applying the -2 discount to HT, we'll apply it to DX, which will already be too expensive and will have the benefit of rounding it up nicely. Therefore: Velocity = 8 + (2×Per + 3×DX)/25 Per: extra +5/lvl (New cost Per: +/- 10/lvl) DX: extra +0/lvl (New Cost DX: +/- 20/lvl) OR Velocity = 8 + DX/5 DX Contribution: 12CP/lvl DX: extra +5/lvl (New Cost DX: +/- 25/lvl)
Dodge/Initiative - either:
Depending on either or not you use Per for Velocity. After all of that fuzz, we get the following list for the times of a normal punch: V1 = 10/1 = 10s V2 = 10/2 = 5s V3 = 10/3 = 3.33s V4 = 10/4 = 2.5 V5 = 10/5 = 2s V6 = 10/6 = 1.67s V7 = 10/7 = 1.43s V8 = 10/8 = 1.25s V9 = 10/9 = 1.11s V10 = 10/10 = 1s V11 = 10/11 = 0.91s V12 = 10/12 = 0.83s V13 = 10/13 = 0.77s V14 = 10/14 = 0.71s V15 = 10/15 = 0.67s V16 = 10/16 = 0.63s V17 = 10/17 = 0.59s V18 = 10/18 = 0.56s V19 = 10/19 = 0.53s V20 = 10/20 = 0.50s V21 = 10/21 = 0.476s V22 = 10/22 = 0.455s V23 = 10/23 = 0.435s V24 = 10/24 = 0.417s V25 = 10/25 = 0.400s V26 = 10/26 = 0.385s V27 = 10/27 = 0.370s V28 = 10/28 = 0.357s V29 = 10/29 = 0.345s V30 = 10/30 = 0.333s ... V40 = 10/40 = 0.250s ... V50 = 10/50 = 0.200s ... V60 = 10/60 = 0.167s ... V70 = 10/70 = 0.143s ... V80 = 10/80 = 0.125s ... V90 = 10/90 = 0.111s ... V100 = 10/100 = 0.100s ... V200 = 10/200 = 0.050s ... V300 = 10/300 = 0.033s ... V400 = 10/400 = 0.025s ... V500 = 10/500 = 0.020s ... V600 = 10/600 = 0.0167s ... V700 = 10/700 = 0.0143s ... V800 = 10/800 = 0.0125s ... V900 = 10/900 = 0.0111s ... V1000 = 10/1000 = 0.0100s V = 10/Vx Altered Time Rate doubles the rating of Velocity - ie someone with Velocity 10 and Super Speed 1 would have a final Velocity of 20, while someone with V20 and SS1 would have a final V40. Likewise, Enhanced Move doubles the final mobility I'll still think on Maneuvers - for example, a quick punch could increase V by 20%, a slow powerful punch decrease it by 20% and pulling a trigger could be x5 or x10 the V (I'll research what's the max human capacity of pulling a trigger in a second) Summary: each point of Velocity (V) above 10 reduces the time required for all actions, gives a +1 bonus to ALL active defenses (Dodge, Parry, Block) and inflicts a penalty of -1 to ALL active defenses of your adversaries. Costs: +/- 60CP/lvl (max +3 for humans) Last edited by KarlKost; 06-30-2022 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Rectifying Mistakes |
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#2 |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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Ok, so we got the costs, but how exactly would that work in combat?
Well, the first obvious answer is that Velocity will determine Active Defenses. Each point above/bellow the human average will grant +/- 1 to ALL active defenses, while imposing a penalty of +/- 1 to the active defenses of the adversary - therefore, it's the same as imposing a penalty equivalent to the difference of Velocity between the two, since the adversary will also be gaining/losing bonuses to his own active defenses. Example: V 12 vs V 11 V 12: active defenses +2, adversary active defenses -2 V 11: active defenses +1, adversary active defenses -1 V 12: if Dodge 8, final Dodge = 8 +2 -1 = 9 V 10: if Dodge 8, final Dodge = 8 +1 -2 = 7 This is realistic, giving faster fighters better reflexes and making them harder to predict. Does that mean that it's basically impossible to defend or hit a super speedster with V1000? YES! Absolutely! A Speedster with V1000 acts once every 0.01 seconds! This mean that such a super takes 100 regular actions in a single second! You SHOULDNT be able to even see his movements, let alone be able to react to those! Now comes the harder part, because the purpose of all that math is to allow a compreensive set of actions; for example, if a nornal human (V10) is (trying to) fight a Speedster with V1000, the Speedster should hit 50 times, the normal human would finish his one action, and then the Speedster would launch another 50 attacks and only then would a new turn begin, in that exact sequence. Now, in order to simulate that, here's what we are gonna do: Take the Reaction Time (RT) of each person involved in the action. Reaction Time is always 1/V. Example
Now we find the Least Common Multiple (LCM) in order to place all of those under the same divisor: LCM 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 = 60.060 And now we apply that to all the fractions:
We can just simply eliminate the divisors for all now:
This gives the amount of "ticks" that each of this fighters take to complete a single, regular action; therefore, the faster the fighter, in less ticks he completes his actions, therefore the lower this number, the better To know what amount of "ticks" correspond to 1 second, use the "control" parameter of an average human of V10, in this case: V10 = 1/10 = 6.006/60.060 = 6.006 ticks/second. Now comes the action sequence; "Fighter E" goes first with 4.004 ticks, followed by "Fighter D" with 4.290 and so forth. Now gets the sequence of actions. For a quick table between "Fighter E" and "Fighter A to compare how would that play out, and the table of 1 second "turns": Fighter E
Fighter A
Ticks per Second
Now, we those tables it gets easy to determine the order of actions of each fighter: Fe(4.004), Fa(5.460), 1s(6.006) Fe(8.008), Fa(10.920), Fe (12.012), 2s(12.012) Fe(16.016), Fa(16.380), 3s(18.018) Fe(20.020), Fa(21.840), Fe(24.024), 4s(24.024) Fa(27.300), Fe(28.028), 5s(30.030) Fe(32.032), Fa(32.760), Fe(36.036), 6s(36.036) Fa(38.220), Fe(40.040), 7s(42.042) Fa(43.680), Fe(44.044), Fe(48.048), 8s(48.048) So, to make a clean table, the order of actions would be as follow: Actions per Second
Meaning that in this small interval of 8 seconds, Fighter E will have acted a total of 12 times, while fighter A will only have acted 8 times. Now, obviously all this math is impractical to be done with paper and pen in the middle of play, hence my problem. A friend of mine said he's willing to make an app for that, so the idea is that you just place each person's Velocity and the app gives you the final actions per second table, but I dont know if he'll do it. This can also be done on Excel I suppose. Im trying to learn how to make an app, but I dont know if I can do it. Anybody would be willing to land a hand? It's for a good cause... Last edited by KarlKost; 06-29-2022 at 05:35 PM. |
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#3 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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So... is the idea here to basically break up the turn into shorter time periods, with characters who operate at super speeds being able to take their "turn" multiple times in a single second, possibly with what they do on their turn influencing how long it takes before they get another (so if you punch - or do a thrust attack - your next action becomes available sooner than if you took a swing)?
I've explored the idea before, and it honestly ends up too complicated to honestly use in play, even with a spreadsheet program to keep track of things (also, it typically requires a spreadsheet program to keep track of things). But you can see some of my previous attempts here and here. Humorously, I still have an almost-complete third version that's a bit more simplified (actually, a lot more, enough it might even be usable at the table), based on my Combat Posture system (specifically, using the Maneuver Points there), in limbo on my blog (but only the part I can access - I never published it). I got stuck trying to work out how to properly handle rapid fire weapons (the bane of any such system) and never resolved it, so it's been there for a few years now, honestly, and probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon...
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#4 | |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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An app would be the easiest, and you would only need to push a button to show the results, a spreedsheet would be kinda polluted but still manageable. Take a look at my previous post, I had reserved it to edit with all the math needed, the work is all there and the only part a little harder is to actually make the damn sheet. After it's done thou you just place the Velocities and (hopefully if it's everything right) it already gives you all the action orders and even the modified active defenses for everybody Just check me second post in this thread |
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#5 | |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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Ideally, this would all be invisible to users, you would just place your Velocity, than there would be a buttom for each different action - so for instance, if a Swing gives +10% in speed (meaning it's slower), my example above would go from 4.004 to 4404.4 ticks for the next action, which the program would calculate automatically, adding that value for the next roll of action of the player or NPC; if it's a Rapid Fire, the player will just press the "Rapid Fire" buttom and his tick count will be added by the system on rounds of 400,4 each (meaning the player would should 10 times before any other act). The only problem I always had is that I dont know programming :) |
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#6 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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I think Altered Time Rate is the official GURPS trait for characters like the Flash. No comment on the virtues of it or any other rules (I have never used it).
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature |
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#7 |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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Bah, yes, I forgot the exact name of the advantage at the moment, so I called it "Super Speed"... I'll edit it
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#8 | |
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
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With Altered Time Rate, the Flash does a single action, then Batman throws a single Batrang, and the Flash does 99.999.999.999 actions afterwards. Also, unless you also buy ungodly amounts of Enhanced Defenses, you can have Altered Time Rate 5000 that you'll be just as easily to hit as the next guy, and you need ungodly amounts of combat skills to mimic being easy to target a "slow moving" (from your perspective) target, in order to take insane levels of Deceptive Attack, tanking insane levels of skill penalty to nullify the active defenses of your adversaries. That's not exactly how it goes. The way I built it, you'll actually have an easier time hitting and avoid being hit the faster you are, like a real Speedster. But that not for Speedsters only, even small changes within human ramge would have an impact. And you can buy the trait in the order of 0.01 apiece; for example, having Velocity 11,24 is slighthly faster than 11,07, and it would be calculated at full by the program (just as an example, Velocity 11,24 would be 1 action every 0.890seconds whike V 11,07 would be 1 action every 0.903, a difference of 0.013 seconds more or less. Now compare those to V 11 full, which is 1 action every 0.909 seconds, and you can note the tiny differences between each fighter) |
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#9 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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I don't follow superheroes, but if Flash runs 100 metres then that is 15 or 20 Move maneuvres. I would give speed/range penalties to hit him, or in melee combat he can choose All-Out Defense as his last manuvre.
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature |
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#10 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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GURPS Overhaul |
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Tags |
combat, speed, speedsters, turn order, turn sequence |
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