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Old 11-09-2020, 03:05 PM   #1
lvalero
 
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default ST +2, Only with long knives

Hi all!

How much should be priced a limitation such as "Accesiblity Only with Long Knives"?

I am planning to create an advantage of ST+2 Only with long knives but I am not sure how to price. -20%, -50%

What about "+2 ST Only with large and long knives"?

Thanks!
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:20 PM   #2
johndallman
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

This is Striking Strength, which is [5/level], with limitations. Dungeon Fantasy 10: Power-Ups, p. 35, gives -60% for surprise attacks only. I'd recommend making it situational, rather than with a specific class of weapons.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:30 PM   #3
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvalero View Post
Hi all!

How much should be priced a limitation such as "Accesiblity Only with Long Knives"?

I am planning to create an advantage of ST+2 Only with long knives but I am not sure how to price. -20%, -50%

What about "+2 ST Only with large and long knives"?

Thanks!
In my campaigns I use the following:

Striking ST
see p. B88
A new limitation for Striking ST is available for those restricting this advantage to one type of attack.

New Special Limitations
Limited: Your Striking ST is limited to a specific attack or category:
Broad: A broad, but still limited category of attacks. Examples: Weapons only, melee attacks only, ranged attacks only, etc. -20%.
Moderate: A moderately specific class of attacks. Examples: muscle-powered ranged attacks only, swords only, unarmed only, etc. -40%.
Narrow: One type of attack only. Examples: bites only, broadsword only, bow only, etc. -60%.
Specific: One specific type of attack or weapon. Examples: Katana only, Karate punch only, etc. -80%.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:38 PM   #4
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvalero View Post
Hi all!

How much should be priced a limitation such as "Accesiblity Only with Long Knives"?

I am planning to create an advantage of ST+2 Only with long knives but I am not sure how to price. -20%, -50%

What about "+2 ST Only with large and long knives"?

Thanks!
Weapon Master costs [45] for all weapons and [20] for one weapon which is a reduction of 56%. So I'd round it to -50% off Striking ST.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:51 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

This is the sort of thing where I consider the likely utility. How often is a PC actually going to be deprived of their favorite weapon? Sometimes -- the GM might feel like throwing in the traditional tavern brawl where you don't want to be using obviously lethal weapons, or slave gladiators, or captured and escaping prison, or all those good old cliches. Sometimes there will be a fight where you need crushing damage, or a ranged weapon. But almost all the time, the PC is just packing whatever gear they like, and are able to use it. The effective difference between "only with long knives" and "in any melee combat" (in which I happen to prefer to use long knives) is small. The character concept is obviously being built around using exactly those weapons, so we don't have to worry about the space of all possible melee weapons.

Keeping in mind that gamer contract where disads (or limitations) are features the player wants the GM to bring up in play, the more points for the discount, the more often the player should expect to be deprived of his favorite weapon. That also matches the utility and gamist forms of the argument. The narrative one is just "who cares as long as the story is good", but then, the extreme form of that principle argues for not caring about having the discount -- or point balance at all, for that matter.

The Accessibility chart (Powers 99) gives -10% for an 80% probability for "Percentage of Time the Ability Works". But I also expect that the PC isn't going to be unable to use their favorite weapons in even 1 out of 5 fights, much less more often. So -10% might even be generous. I usually feel that chart is a little stingy, though, so it's probably OK. -20% would be unusable half the time, which seems highly unlikely in most games.
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Old 11-09-2020, 07:26 PM   #6
Plane
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Narrow: One type of attack only. Examples: bites only, broadsword only, bow only, etc. -60%.
Specific: One specific type of attack or weapon. Examples: Katana only, Karate punch only, etc. -80%.
Former do you mean the BROADSWORD skill (B271 inc Light Club, Bastard Sword, Cavalry Saber, etc) or the "Broadsword" weapon (sw+1 cut / tr+1 impale, 3 pounds, ST 10, etc) ?

Latter seems like stacking Powers' "One Attack Only -60%" for Striking ST with Powers' "One Skill Only -20%" for Extra Attack.
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Old 11-10-2020, 12:05 AM   #7
lvalero
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Thank you very much for your replys!


I have to consider about it because all of you have arisen very valid points.



Specially both Anaraxases and Christopher have given me very insightful advice.


Lots of thanks!
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Old 11-10-2020, 07:01 AM   #8
Gnome
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
This is the sort of thing where I consider the likely utility. How often is a PC actually going to be deprived of their favorite weapon? Sometimes -- the GM might feel like throwing in the traditional tavern brawl where you don't want to be using obviously lethal weapons, or slave gladiators, or captured and escaping prison, or all those good old cliches. Sometimes there will be a fight where you need crushing damage, or a ranged weapon. But almost all the time, the PC is just packing whatever gear they like, and are able to use it. The effective difference between "only with long knives" and "in any melee combat" (in which I happen to prefer to use long knives) is small. The character concept is obviously being built around using exactly those weapons, so we don't have to worry about the space of all possible melee weapons.

Keeping in mind that gamer contract where disads (or limitations) are features the player wants the GM to bring up in play, the more points for the discount, the more often the player should expect to be deprived of his favorite weapon. That also matches the utility and gamist forms of the argument. The narrative one is just "who cares as long as the story is good", but then, the extreme form of that principle argues for not caring about having the discount -- or point balance at all, for that matter.

The Accessibility chart (Powers 99) gives -10% for an 80% probability for "Percentage of Time the Ability Works". But I also expect that the PC isn't going to be unable to use their favorite weapons in even 1 out of 5 fights, much less more often. So -10% might even be generous. I usually feel that chart is a little stingy, though, so it's probably OK. -20% would be unusable half the time, which seems highly unlikely in most games.
Do you house rule the costs for Weapon Master in your games? It seems like the authors' philosophy differs significantly from yours with regard to the utility of bonuses to one weapon vs. many.
I tend to agree with your side of things, so I'm curious if you've come up with better cost schemes for WM.
I'm also occasionally irked by the cost of DX vs weapon skills--most PCs end up with one weapon skill at very high levels and DX at a more modest level, so the only PCs who are broadly capable at an array of weapons are the ones who also want to be awesome at Climbing, Stealth, etc. The general conclusion at my table at least is that to be capable in combat you really only need to be good at one skill, and buying up one skill is WAY cheaper than buying more than one.
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:00 AM   #9
RyanW
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
• Broad: A broad, but still limited category of attacks. Examples: Weapons only, melee attacks only, ranged attacks only, etc. -20%.
• Moderate: A moderately specific class of attacks. Examples: muscle-powered ranged attacks only, swords only, unarmed only, etc. -40%.
What ranged attacks that aren't muscle-powered weapons get ST based damage?
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Old 11-10-2020, 10:01 AM   #10
Imbicatus
 
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Default Re: ST +2, Only with long knives

My guess would be Thrown weapons and slings vs Bows/Crossbows. Bows and crossbows are a little wonky to deal with anyway as they are rated on the bow’s st, not the users st. And then there’s the strongbow perk which is effectively striking ST 2 (bow only) for a point.
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