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Old 12-05-2023, 11:06 AM   #121
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: supers: nine options

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
For 3e, the ranks and measures table amounts to
mass = 50 * 2^rank
time = 6s * 2*rank
distance = 30' * 2^rank
volume = 2^rank cf

Just change that to, say, 10^(rank/10) (decibels) and it's a whole lot less cinematic in its scaling with very little that needs changing elsewhere.
Interesting. Basically you're just multiplying the ranks that correspond to a given physical magnitude factor by 3.
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Old 12-05-2023, 11:21 AM   #122
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Default Re: supers: nine options

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Interesting. Basically you're just multiplying the ranks that correspond to a given physical magnitude factor by 3.
Yeah. The core mechanic isn't inherently cinematic, it's just a d20 test against a target number, it just comes down to how you set the modifiers.

You can also make it less cinematic by changing to something with a smaller variance than a d20; switching to 3d6 is equivalent to roughly halving modifiers.
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Last edited by Anthony; 12-05-2023 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12-05-2023, 01:55 PM   #123
whswhs
 
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Default Re: supers: nine options

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Yeah. The core mechanic isn't inherently cinematic, it's just a d20 test against a target number, it just comes down to how you set the modifiers.

You can also make it less cinematic by changing to something with a smaller variance than a d20; switching to 3d6 is equivalent to roughly halving modifiers.
Are these things that could be done with the second edition? What would have to be differently handled to do so?
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Old 12-05-2023, 02:08 PM   #124
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Default Re: supers: nine options

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Are these things that could be done with the second edition? What would have to be differently handled to do so?
2e was a bit inconsistent with its scaling (non-super strength actually used the D&D 3.5e scaling, which is 2.5x slower than the super-strength scaling); I think the bigger problem you were having with 2e was its PL rules, which 3e relaxed by a lot (you can trade increased PL in one area for reduced in another, and detach point levels from PL).

I would note that a surprisingly large part of M&M 3e is open game content; as far as I know https://www.d20herosrd.com/ is legal (I recommend an ad blocker, though).
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Old 12-05-2023, 02:49 PM   #125
whswhs
 
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Default Re: supers: nine options

Well, power levels and limits were an initial hangup, but once I saw that you could buy super-strength separately they were less of an issue. A second issue was that a x1000 multiplier was only 10 levels, which meant that a character had to be incredibly strong to gain much of an advantage in combat. But the really crucial issue may have been that the same die roll could give you any outcome from no effect to unconscious (or unconscious + dying); against an average human punch, for example, the toughness save was 15, and on a d20 you had a 30% chance of no effect, a 25% chance of bruised, a 25% chance of bruised + stunned, and a 20% chance of staggered + stunned, while a character with five levels of strike had 5%, 25%, 25%, 25%, and then a 20% chance of unconscious. On one hand buying powers didn't seem to make all that much difference, and on the other the range of variability seemed very high—a character with no powers and one with a fairly substantial superpunch both still had a 25% chance of inflicting a bruise and nothing else.

Your suggestion of going over to 3d6 gives us 9%, 53%, 36%, and 2% in the first case, and 0%, 9%, 53%, 36%, and 2% in the second: the ordinary punch typically bruises a foe and never knocks him out, whereas the superpunch typically bruises and stuns him and never leaves him uninjured. That does seem like an improvement in verisimilitude.
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Old 12-05-2023, 04:23 PM   #126
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Default Re: supers: nine options

Looking in another direction, have any of you looked at the Hero System sixth edition Basic book? I'm wondering how suitable it would be for use by itself, and particularly how good its coverage of powers is. I hesitate to invest in two substantial volumes, but I might go for one compact book—but not if its compaction is at the expense of actual playability.
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Old 12-05-2023, 04:50 PM   #127
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Default Re: supers: nine options

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But the really crucial issue may have been that the same die roll could give you any outcome from no effect to unconscious (or unconscious + dying)
I don't actually consider that part cinematic. It's a bit off for unarmed combat, but for weapons there's actually an immense amount of randomness.

In practice the system winds up being ablative anyway, because PCs just spend hero points to reroll really bad saves.

I recall reading through hero 6e, but I don't know where my copy went and I haven't played with it much. The most important change was probably eliminating figured characteristics (they're now just bought up from a base as if you had a primary attribute of 10). Not sure how much is in the basic rules, but the power system is similar enough that you could just use your existing books from 4e or 5e and things will be fine.
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Old 12-05-2023, 05:22 PM   #128
whswhs
 
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Default Re: supers: nine options

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I don't actually consider that part cinematic. It's a bit off for unarmed combat, but for weapons there's actually an immense amount of randomness.
Yes, but superheroic narratives tend to focus on unarmed combat.

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I recall reading through hero 6e, but I don't know where my copy went and I haven't played with it much. The most important change was probably eliminating figured characteristics (they're now just bought up from a base as if you had a primary attribute of 10). Not sure how much is in the basic rules, but the power system is similar enough that you could just use your existing books from 4e or 5e and things will be fine.
It's specifically the Basic rules I'm focused on. If I were to run a campaign in the future my players might want to use the current edition, rather than tracking down older editions; I'm wondering if the Basic rules give a solid enough treatment of the current edition's mechanics.
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