Money-to-point comparison/conversion

[FeralVentas]

I recently had a discussion with my group's GURPS GM, and we weren't able to come to a resolution on whether it'd be fit or even worth consideration to make wealth and XP points interchangeable.

The way that came to mind to cultivate the exchange comes in two forms; Wealth in dealing with points and money at character creation, and Income when dealing with money and xp once the game has started and the flow of both toward the party starts.

At the game's start, one can take a disadvantage of 0% wealth for 25 points. Therefore 100% of your starting wealth is worth 25 points, whatever that ammount may be for the TL and setting rules. Proceeding to the other levels of destitution, starting with only 20% of your wealth grants 15 points; 50% grants 10 points, and normal wealth doesn't go Into your point values, so it grants zero additional points.

Scaling in the other direction, you could potentially invest all of your points into money, scaling upwards on the same 2/5/10 scale that numerous other powers and abilities and advantages grow dramatically with each additional investment. So 200% starting money is worth 10 points all the way up to however many starting xp points you have to start with.

With that in mind, if we treat the available amount of wealth via TL or setting as placed by the GM, then the actual monetary % is static to the amount of points that it can purchase or be purchased by, giving a working exchange rate.

With this in mind, would it be sound to allow a player to purchase items and other valuables in spending XP points so long as doing so fits the situation (selling a part of one's soul in a fantastic realm setting, or making a purchase via reputation and influences by losing face (purchasing real-estate in a way that diminishes social standing that one could have purchased, or investing in a scenario/situation that is otherwise embarrassing or problematic to be in).

Alternatively, could one instead purchase advantages, ability score alterations, or skill ranks with monetary costs with the notion that the xp value of the % of the player's available wealth being cost equivalent to the money it would have purchased or allowed?

Since the point values can be exchanged at an equal value in points-to-%, why is there a separated set of points/currency anyway?

[Anaraxes]

The main reason to have two currencies is that money exists in the setting, is something that characters are aware of, and can be exchanged for other objects that are part of the setting. Character points, on the other hand, are a meta-game device of which only the players are aware. It doesn't make sense to me (for most games) for characters to be aware of their CP totals and buy more, or for cash to appear and disappear as the player scratches on a character sheet. The players might well decide to require CP expenditures that parallel changes in their in-game wealth, or require the characters to undertake some action to justify a desired CP expenditure (going to the specialty store, finding a plastic surgeon, earning the favor of a god to receive that divine imprimatur...) But the two aren't freely interchangable.

Some of the places in the game where the rules become awkward are where the two intersect. What's the point of the poverty Disadvantages if the one rich character can bankroll everyone for fewer points than the group got back for all those Dead Brokes? Or in a D&D-style game with finding fabulous treasures, dragon-sized rooms full of coins, gems and masterful artifacts? In a sci-fi game, how does anyone manage to afford their tramp freighter starship when none of them are Multi-Millionaires? In a cyberpunk game, does your new bionic eye -- mere equipment -- also cost CP for the Advantages you get? In a supers game, why does one character pay CP for their 7d Innate Attack while another character can just grab a 7d rifle from a thug?

(Cyberpunk to me seems to call for a "pay both currencies" rule, while supers would usually be "everyone pays points". It really depends on the setting and the feel of the game.)

A lot of players, including I believe Kromm, find that CP totals are relevant only at character creation. Once the game is underway, character's CP totals can swing up and down, and might diverge -- and that's okay. Indeed, there's not much use for knowing a post-start CP total that includes good and bad things that happen to your characters, unless you just like to keep that running total going as a sort of score. CP isn't a good direct measure of character power, because "power" in GURPS consists of so many different dimensions -- combat, social, financial, etc.

RAW doesn't have a consistent rate of exchanging CP for gear. Compare the points-for-cash rule with Signature Gear, or Signature Gear with higher levels of Wealth. Neither a consistent linear constant, or a consistent progression, covering all cases.

The Wealth rules are among the most debated on the forum. Lots of people aren't happy with the way they work, at least in some ways. Lots of houserule tweaks -- see PK's rules page, for instance -- but I don't know of any solid alternative systems. So, you'll be in good company if you houserule your own Wealth-related Advantages.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

At the game's start, one can take a disadvantage of 0% wealth for 25 points. Therefore 100% of your starting wealth is worth 25 points,

Full stop right there. You seem to be thinking in terms of starting funds. But that's not what Wealth is. If you want starting funds for gear, go pick Signature Gear or the like.

No, taking Dead Broke [-25] means that you can't ever get a Job, that the society considers you financially null one way or another, and that (in games such as Dungeon Fantasy) you can never earn money by selling off loot, for whatever reason (you constantly get ambushed by the mob on your return to the fence, you always donate it to the temple, you have a curse of bad luck in monetary issues, whatever).

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Full stop right there. You seem to be thinking in terms of starting funds. But that's not what Wealth is. If you want starting funds for gear, go pick Signature Gear or the like.

No, taking Dead Broke [-25] means that you can't ever get a Job, that the society considers you financially null one way or another, and that (in games such as Dungeon Fantasy) you can never earn money by selling off loot, for whatever reason (you constantly get ambushed by the mob on your return to the fence, you always donate it to the temple, you have a curse of bad luck in monetary issues, whatever).

This. Wealth has an impact during gameplay too.

It's not something I tend to be happy with myself (Why DOES everything you sell tend to sell better than the other guy?) but it's there.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

This. Wealth has an impact during gameplay too.

It's not something I tend to be happy with myself (Why DOES everything you sell tend to sell better than the other guy?) but it's there.

It kinda makes sense if you think of Wealth as including some sort of basic "business charisma".

"It takes money to make money" and that line of thinking.

[FeralVentas]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Full stop right there. You seem to be thinking in terms of starting funds. But that's not what Wealth is. If you want starting funds for gear, go pick Signature Gear or the like.

No, taking Dead Broke [-25] means that you can't ever get a Job, that the society considers you financially null one way or another, and that (in games such as Dungeon Fantasy) you can never earn money by selling off loot, for whatever reason (you constantly get ambushed by the mob on your return to the fence, you always donate it to the temple, you have a curse of bad luck in monetary issues, whatever).

Being financially null doesn't make one useless, and working for something other than monetary reward can come up a lot. Some of your own examples come up with boons that would come Because of the character's lack of funding. Throwing money at the temple can and will earn good will from other devotees there-in.

I'm not saying that the disadvantage should be ignored, but that there are alternative reasons for using CP expenditures for either money-value character options (all that money at the temple earning a high ranking priest's favor for example) or an apprentice/servant that works exclusively for their educational advancement, forsaking the monetary rewards of their craft to learn directly from a master.

More to the point however, the severity of the disadvantage of being Dead Broke still gives you 25 CP to work with. Since there is a separate pair of Advantage/Disadvantage in the form of either Debt or Independent Income, that handle money once the game has started, I don't see how it's an inaccurate statement to say that giving up all of your wealth is worth 25 CP, and correlate accordingly to that meaning that 100% of your starting wealth could be worth 25 points worth of advantages if you have a means of getting to money later in the game.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

It kinda makes sense if you think of Wealth as including some sort of basic "business charisma".

Wealth, in a modern setting, if above-average or even just at average, is best thought of as having a clean and unbroken employment track and some kind of skill certificate (such as a college degree).

Just as in the real world, what you can do matters little in the eyes of potential employers. It's all about the papers you can show them, and the (verifiable) stories you can tell them (the traditional types of stories that they want to hear).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

Being financially null doesn't make one useless, and working for something other than monetary reward can come up a lot.

Canonically, the reward can include the benefits of CoL for purposes of maintaining a given level of Status, when appropriate. But the point is you can't get a loan, you don't have a way to earn money or equivalent valuable equipment directly (barring stuff like Patron, or equipment given temporarily for a specific duty etc.), people will suspect you of thievery if they see you with expensive stuff, you tend to lose valuable stuff one way or another, you can't have Independent Income, enemies get huge bonuses when offering bribes to you etc.

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

Some of your own examples come up with boons that would come Because of the character's lack of funding. Throwing money at the temple can and will earn good will from other devotees there-in.

Yep, buying a Reputation for the points saved on Negative Wealth does seem like a reasonable way to get a boon in exchange for the troubles.

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

More to the point however, the severity of the disadvantage of being Dead Broke still gives you 25 CP to work with. Since there is a separate pair of Advantage/Disadvantage in the form of either Debt or Independent Income, that handle money once the game has started, I don't see how it's an inaccurate statement to say that giving up all of your wealth is worth 25 CP, and correlate accordingly to that meaning that 100% of your starting wealth could be worth 25 points worth of advantages if you have a means of getting to money later in the game.

My point is 'giving up all your Wealth' includes giving up not only the starting money, but also all further opportunities to get a reliable means of getting money later in the game. Until bought off, anyway.

[FeralVentas]

It is not the case that being Broke revokes your ability to ever have money.

"Above-average Wealth is an advantage;
it means you start with two or
more times the average starting wealth
of your game world."

Start being the key word.

"Dead Broke: You have no job, no
source of income, no money, and no
property other than the clothes you are
wearing. Either you are unable to work
or there are no jobs to be found. -25
points."

You start with nothing when the game starts. The reasons for this can vary, but that is All that that disadvantage states.

Additionally, even if you take the Increased Wealth value, That money doesn't keep flowing; it is a set amount to start with and a nice nest egg, but doesn't result in a constant stream of cash unless you're Using that money to make more through active actions in the game or taking the Income advantage as well.


While I'm admittedly responding to it, this is getting off topic for the original intent of the thread. I'll be wrapping up here if there's to be no discussion of money and CP exchange or comparison in value.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

It is not the case that being Broke revokes your ability to ever have money.

"Above-average Wealth is an advantage;
it means you start with two or
more times the average starting wealth
of your game world."

Start being the key word.

That is merely one aspect of Wealth Level, but it exists, yes . . .

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

"Dead Broke: You have no job, no
source of income, no money, and no
property other than the clothes you are
wearing. Either you are unable to work
or there are no jobs to be found. -25
points."

You start with nothing when the game starts. The reasons for this can vary, but that is All that that disadvantage states.

Notice that you can't have a job too. Your Average-Wealth mechanic goes to the factory and keeps the gears running smoothly, but your Dead Broke beggar just can't hold onto anything more than the goods barely enough to survive at a given Status, even if he's on the crowdiest corner 12 hours per day, all week.

Originally Posted by FeralVentas

Additionally, even if you take the Increased Wealth value, That money doesn't keep flowing; it is a set amount to start with and a nice nest egg, but doesn't result in a constant stream of cash unless you're Using that money to make more through active actions in the game or taking the Income advantage as well.


While I'm admittedly responding to it, this is getting off topic for the original intent of the thread. I'll be wrapping up here if there's to be no discussion of money and CP exchange or comparison in value.

Oh, but the money does in fact keep flowing. Roughly 10% of your Starting Wealth per month, adjusted for the workload of your character's job and the Job Roll for freelancers or Accumulated Promotions for non-freelancers. This happens even if you lost all the cash and goods you got from Starting Wealth.

My point is that trading points for cash can not be directly compared to buying Wealth, because Wealth is very much about stuff other than starting money. The amount of money on hand is the most impermanent of the things Wealth gives.