Weapons expertise for swords

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I think that if you followed Shostak's suggestion, just about every PC and NPC with IQ 11 would get the Defensive Attack bonus, which would make a high DX just that much more desirable.

It seems like an awful lot of fighters who reach IQ 11 get that defensive bonus anyway, and a lot more besides, by learning Fencing or Weapon Expertise, which ends up still making DX all the more desirable. What's the fundamental problem with acquiring the abilities folded into these talents one at a time instead of having leap from having none of the abilities to having all? At least by buying them piecemeal, one has the option to favor stronger attack or better defense. Making decisions can be fun.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

It seems like an awful lot of fighters who reach IQ 11 get that defensive bonus anyway, and a lot more besides, by learning Fencing or Weapon Expertise, which ends up still making DX all the more desirable. What's the fundamental problem with acquiring the abilities folded into these talents one at a time instead of having leap from having none of the abilities to having all? At least by buying them piecemeal, one has the option to favor stronger attack or better defense. Making decisions can be fun.

I understand your point about choices being good, but I don't want some choices to be so obvious that everyone chooses the same thing. A one point talent that makes one harder to hit is just too obviously good.

One could say that this applies to Shield Expertise as well, but using a shield limits other choices so that it's not obviously the best route to take, no matter what. On the other hand, it is very common for shield users to gain the benefits of the cheap expertise talent already.

But maybe I exaggerate the problem. I guess I don't know for a fact. I just think that I'm okay with the -1DX to hit to be part of an expensive package, so that one has to really commit to being skilled in weapon use in order to gain the reward.

On the one hand, to each his own, but on the other hand, I'm right and you're wrong.

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I understand your point about choices being good, but I don't want some choices to be so obvious that everyone chooses the same thing. A one point talent that makes one harder to hit is just too obviously good.

One could say that this applies to Shield Expertise as well, but using a shield limits other choices so that it's not obviously the best route to take, no matter what. On the other hand, it is very common for shield users to gain the benefits of the cheap expertise talent already.

But maybe I exaggerate the problem. I guess I don't know for a fact. I just think that I'm okay with the -1DX to hit to be part of an expensive package, so that one has to really commit to being skilled in weapon use in order to gain the reward.

On the one hand, to each his own, but on the other hand, I'm right and you're wrong.

Well yes of course you are quite right "in your wrongness" LOL

If you broke scholar into three 1 point talents that highlighted the various aspects currently covered in its 3IQ form would it hurt the game?

Providing more choice allows for more diverse builds regardless of the predominance of any one path.
The expensive "get it all" talent packages at the very least force characters into a predetermined archetype build that is fundamentally counter to the whole creative aspect of RPG character creation.
Lets pretend there were talents like.
weapon offence I, II & III (like Missile Weapon) giving + to hit
weapon Defense I, II &III giving -1 each to be hit
weapon damage I, II & III adding +1 damage each
Now using the same 3 points that would be spent on weapon expertise what is your build tree? My goal might be weapon "Mastery" so add 3 more points for a total of 6. No matter what the average power gamer is going to choose this array of choices is far superior in both flavor and design.

Throw in some of the other unique abilities as separate skills (with possible prerequisites) such as "Shrewd Blow", "Disarming" etc. and it could be a wonderfully freedom filled experience.

The "Obvious Choices" that can unbalance or ruin a game are seldom encountered in actual play, and those who gravitate to the style of "Blob, Flinger, Molly" PCs never stay for long in my experience.

[hcobb]

Note that Weapon Expertise and Missile Weapons are reversed WRT each other.
The only benefit of Missile Weapons is a boost to adjDX (esp. at long ranges), while the main benefit of Weapon Expertise is to be able to trade off your current DX in exchange for extra damage.
Hence the Weapon Expertise build is low ST (being able to trade DX for extra damage as needed), say the cheesy half-elf at ST 7, DX 13, IQ 12 with Dagger Expertise and eight other memory points while the Light Crossbow sniper has ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9, Crossbow, Missile Weapons III, and five other memory points. (Which would include the Common tongue for the Dwarf or Reptile Person.)
Either of these builds can be mixed into a wizard, but the results are suboptimal.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by timm meyers

If you broke scholar into three 1 point talents that highlighted the various aspects currently covered in its 3IQ form would it hurt the game?

These could be separated as Linguist, Historian, and Cultural Expert. I'd probably allow teaching and the reaction bonus to come with each, but not stack.

[JimmyPlenty]

Axes are considered easier to use than swords. So that would solve that issue except that polearms are considered harder to learn than swords. So there is still an issue. (polearm expertise at IQ 12, perhaps?)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

Axes are considered easier to use than swords. So that would solve that issue except that polearms are considered harder to learn than swords. So there is still an issue. (polearm expertise at IQ 12, perhaps?)

TFT’s talent costs suggest that axes, swords, and polearms all have equivalent difficulties.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Shostak

TFT’s talent costs suggest that axes, swords, and polearms all have equivalent difficulties.

Axe/Mace Expertise covers nine very different weapons,
while Sword Expertise costs just as much but only covers five rather similar weapons.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Axe/Mace Expertise covers nine very different weapons,
while Sword Expertise costs just as much but only covers five rather similar weapons.

Nine very different weapons? Four on the Axe/Mace list are axes, differing only in size. The others are all essentially weighted sticks, most with nasty bits at the business end to improve the weapon's ability to puncture armor. This seems more like two types of weapons: axes and maces.

[hcobb]

Full mastery of everything on the Axe/Mace table: 8 memory points.
Full mastery of everything on the Dagger/Sword table: 20 memory points.

And even then the Axe/Mace Master gets +3 damage on throwing the Small Ax vs the mastered dagger.