Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Car Wars > Car Wars Old Editions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2021, 05:32 PM   #121
juris
 
juris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Silly Cars

I'm not so sure. Assume a half load of HD ammo as that's the usual arena trick. Two revised HMGs with HD ammo will do 2d+6 vs 2d+2 for a VMG and take the same number of spaces. Think twin laser vs the laser. If you want to squeeze more damage per space out of a weapon then expect the weapon to be much heavier.

Designs with 4 HMGs front can still pack some decent armor (lots of examples in the vehicle builder). Of course trailers with 4 HMGs in a 4-space turret is a standard. Getting hit by 4 revised HMGs for 4d6+12 damage (26 points on average) will kill most vehicles in two sustained shots. No other weapon really compares.

Example (not mine):

Quadgunner -- Mid-sized, Extra-Heavy chassis, Heavy suspension, Large power plant, Heavy-Duty High-Torque Motors, Fire Extinguisher, 4 Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver w/SWC and BA and 10-pt Fireproof CA, 4 Linked Heavy Machine Guns Front each w/10 shots High-Density, Plastic Armor: F40, L30, R30, B30, T7, U8, 2 10-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 10-pt Wheelhubs Front, Acceleration 5 (x2 w/HDHTMs), Top Speed 92.5, HC 3, 5760 lbs., $19720

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
I think that may be too stingy.

.

Last edited by juris; 12-06-2021 at 05:35 PM.
juris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2021, 02:47 AM   #122
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
I'm not so sure. Assume a half load of HD ammo as that's the usual arena trick. Two revised HMGs with HD ammo will do 2d+6 vs 2d+2 for a VMG and take the same number of spaces. Think twin laser vs the laser. If you want to squeeze more damage per space out of a weapon then expect the weapon to be much heavier.

Designs with 4 HMGs front can still pack some decent armor (lots of examples in the vehicle builder). Of course trailers with 4 HMGs in a 4-space turret is a standard. Getting hit by 4 revised HMGs for 4d6+12 damage (26 points on average) will kill most vehicles in two sustained shots. No other weapon really compares.

Example (not mine):

Quadgunner -- Mid-sized, Extra-Heavy chassis, Heavy suspension, Large power plant, Heavy-Duty High-Torque Motors, Fire Extinguisher, 4 Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver w/SWC and BA and 10-pt Fireproof CA, 4 Linked Heavy Machine Guns Front each w/10 shots High-Density, Plastic Armor: F40, L30, R30, B30, T7, U8, 2 10-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 10-pt Wheelhubs Front, Acceleration 5 (x2 w/HDHTMs), Top Speed 92.5, HC 3, 5760 lbs., $19720
The 2 x HMG weapon system is much heavier, that's why you had to carry a half load of ammo. If you are going to make that comparison you should maybe be comparing it with a RR instead. Lasers are not a good comparator as they don't really use ammo (or at least it isn't an issue in most battles). In an arena battle you will run out of car long before you run out of PFs. All the extra weight has to come out of the weapon rather than the weapon+ammo combo.

10 shots is a significant limitation. You are just as able to take a VMG with only 10 shots (400lb all up) or a RR (350lb all up). If the HMG was 200lb, with 10 shots per gun they are 100lb heavier than the VMG overall. If you go HD the 10 shot VMG is 450lb, but the twin HMG is 600lb. Also consider that you are probably going to have to fire more shots as you only hit on a 7.

The other issue is that if you make it too bad it starts to be overshadowed by the MG with HD ammo.

If you swap out the 4 HMGs for a pair of half loaded HD VMGs the Quadgunner is 500lb lighter and over $4000 cheaper. That's 60 points of armour and a HRSWC upgrade. If any of that armour is metal, the VMG version becomes a much better car. The RR HEAT version gives you 700lb to play with. You can put 4+ points of metal on each side and pretty much blunt the HMGs.

If the HMG does 2d-2 base then the Quadgunner is obviously overpowered. If it is dropped to 1d+2 then it becomes much less obvious whether it is even competitive. As with all things you can min-max, but that doesn't tell you much about balance.

Last edited by swordtart; 12-08-2021 at 07:04 AM. Reason: Typo
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2021, 01:12 PM   #123
juris
 
juris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Silly Cars

10 shots is all you need for most arenas. Your armor won't last past 10 shots, especially if people are tagging you with 4 HMGs ;)


Swapping the HMGs for VMGs:
Yes, now you have a good tire hunter, but you can't wipe someone out in two volleys. 60 points of additional armor is nice, but it'll go fast if you get hit with 4 HMGs lol

Quadgunner underpowered with 2d-2 base damage? Under the current rules the Quadgunner does 8DD with a half load of HD ammo. That's insane. On average it's only 28 points, but its much more devastating against metal armor, and it's a lot swingier, so on a good round you'll do 35 points of damage or more. Nobody uses HMGs with regular ammo. 2d-2 is not good. 2DD is very good.
juris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2021, 01:53 PM   #124
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Silly Cars

HMG: 2 sp.; 400 lbs. full-load std. ammo; all other stats the same.

Same principle as the MML-vs.-RL: Lower cost, but less flexible.
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

79er

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 01:12 AM   #125
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Quadgunner underpowered with 2d-2 base damage?
No, Quadgunner OVERPOWERED (or more correctly the 4 HMGs) with 2d-2 base as stated.

My point was that if you drop the damage to 1d+2 base you end up with volleys of up to 4d+12 with HD ammo. That isn't massively different to 4d+4 with HD VMG, especially as the HMG will hit less often. Even if you are doing 8 more points a turn my 60 points of armour will buy me 7 more turns (compared to the damage the VMG would do - clearly lasting 7 turns is going to need some skilful manoeuvring).

If it is 12 points of metal you will strip it on average after 18 turns but until then it is twice as effective against the HMGs as the VMGs as it takes damage off each shot in a volley, not each volley. If I had 12 points between me and the HD HMGs I could completely negate your first volley as each hit does a maximum of 9 points and each hit only has a 1 in 6 chance of stripping so by the time I am rolling the last hit in the volley I will definitely still have 9 points of metal left (and probably 10 or more). I can't say the same about the VMGs as they can do 14 points maximum and by the time I am resolving the second shot there is a 1 in 3 chance I would have lost a point of metal and 1/36 chance I would have lost 2 points.

Average damage per volley for the HMGs is 14 + 12 or 26. Average for the VMG is 14 + 4 or 18. As you are rolling 4 dice for both, then you flatten the probability curve so that 14 is probably quite stable. Assuming we target the weakest point I will be through the 30 points of side armour of the Quadgunner in the second volley and doing 6 points on internals. If I had 3 points of metal on each of the major quadrants allowed from the weight saving it will block 12 points (3 from each shot) meaning I only lose 14-15 points on the first volley and say 15-16 points from the second volley just breaching. It would need your third volley to hit internals.

On this alone it looks pretty close and I might have allowed the 250lb to stand, but remember I am effectively at +2 to hit compared to the HMG Quadgunner. I think this extra disadvantage is maybe worth 50lb per gun.

Last edited by swordtart; 12-08-2021 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Lots of stuff
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 03:37 AM   #126
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: Silly Cars

Car Wars 2.5-4 Edition sorely needs a 300lb , repeat firing non-Rocket weapon desperately .

This is way we screamed 'foul' when US Edition of UACFH stated 350lbs in main text out of nowhere .

So HMG , RR & Medium Laser all 350lbs ... and what weighs 300lbs ... ?

To paraphrase the great Mister Phil Radley "Car Wars just doesn't work like that !"

It's like pronunciation of Edinburgh , Leicester , Isle of Muff , Arkansas , Plouhkeepsie , Newfoundland , Herbs or Lieutenant : everyone thinks they are correct & unfortunately everyone's partly correct ...
__________________
Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!!
The Resident Brit .
Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 10:18 AM   #127
juris
 
juris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Silly Cars

Sorry misread what you were saying. We agree the current HMG is broken.

But if you make the HMG base 1d6+3 damage then you make the HMG even better than before. A half load of HD ammo (the standard as stated above) will do 1d6+4. 4 HMGs will now do an average of 30 points of damage, that's even more than the current rules! That why 1d6+2 base is the better adjustment. That's my main point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
No, Quadgunner OVERPOWERED (or more correctly the 4 HMGs) with 2d-2 base as stated.

.
juris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 11:32 AM   #128
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

I originally suggested the 1d+3 as it aligned with the HAVR. I forgot in my haste to bring petty-fogging consistency that I also think that the HAVR is broken :)

Having worked through this with you, I agree that 1d+2 is the right entry point. I am still a little concerned with the weight of the gun, but to be honest I'd rather have a HMG that at least one other person agrees on and the less change the better.

With a 1d+2 as a base the HD option is less worthwhile, but maybe a +2 with the benefit of a 1 space weapon is plenty.

I'd still like to see a systematic approach applied so that all weapons were equally credible, but I think that ship sailed long ago.
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 01:30 PM   #129
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Silly Cars

Somewhere, I have a list of weapons I ran through the formula in _ADQ 1/4_; I may need to reconstruct it.
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

79er

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2021, 07:19 AM   #130
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

1-4?

Do you mean the Greg Porter article on vehicle design strategy in 1-3?

For some combinations of weapon average damage isn't quite enough. Sometimes maximum damage is the key (or minimum as a limitation).

E.g. a pair of VSG have better average damage than single MG but together they can only do 0, 2 or 4 damage. They can never strip metal and so if they face just 2 points of metal they can fire until Christmas and never get anything through. The MG will get something through 4 times in 6 and on that 6th chance actually removes metal.

Simple calculations make comparisons of different types of weapon very hard. If the weapon design were systematic it would be easier to trade capability.

I.e. there would be a light, medium and heavy MG. There might be a Gatling version of each MG type that took up more weight (and maybe an extra space) but doubled the number of hits. The MG would be based on the handguns that fired the same ammunition (just as we base the classification of RL MGs on the 5.56, 7.62 and 0.5 calibres for which we have rifles). Those hand weapons would do damage to cars as well (since if a burst of a particular round can damage armour, a single round should as well). it might be 1 point, but then the burst version can be readily calculated.

We would have an entirely different class of weapons for RLs, another for FTs etc. You would chose the special ability of the weapon type and then decided whether you wanted the light, ,medium or heavy version.

This isn't CW though :)
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.