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Old 07-31-2009, 07:24 AM   #31
Crispythemighty
 
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
Actually, I also don't use a fuzzy interpretation of turn order - if I did, I wouldn't have a problem with counterattacks as they are now. I was mentioning the fact that it is in reality more fluid than in the game to justify disrupting it. Simply put, because the turn order is more strict than in reality, it's OK to disrupt it without making things unrealistic (indeed, one can argue it makes things a bit more realistic).

As for your own counterattack being disrupted by the enemy defending against somebody else, this makes absolutely no sense. Counterattack makes use of a momentary opening in an enemy's defenses that is left after you defend against his attack. By the time he defends against someone else's attack, this opening must be gone - otherwise, he'd suffer a penalty to that defense. If you are taking advantage of the opening, you have to do so while it's still there. The opening is not going to last less time simply because your enemy had to defend elsewhere.

Also, note you are only temporarily changing turn order. If you act on Speed 7 normally, but countered someone with Speed 8, you go back (next round) to acting on Speed 7. And, although everyone can attempt a counterattack, it's generally not worth it unless you've invested points in the technique. You'd be better off using a vanilla Deceptive Attack (Counterattack is -5 and imposes a -2 penalty to defenses; Deceptive Attack at -4 imposes the same penalty to defense).

Finally, while Wait could work (and was indeed proposed, way back in post #6 by Anthony), I think it makes the options much less useful than they should be. It also kills the "flavor" associated with them - they are supposed to be reactions, rather than planned actions.
Sounds like you've picked a way that works for you. I hope it works out the way you'd like.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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It come up in the doge threads in the pass, even if you making more than one dodge roll, does not mean they are separate actions. than the one movement can defended agasin multple attack comming in that single second.

so in this cas you parry both attacks with the on arm movement.
Just because they are part of one motion doesn't mean they are occuring at the same time. If you Judo Parry guy A and guy B with the same arm, certainly you can describe it as one fluid motion. The problem, however, is you must leave guy A behind to parry guy B. You can't keep your arm there and parry with it (presumably you could raise your elbow to parry, but I think that would be penalized beyond the penalty for multiple parries). It does work decently well for the Counterattack technique, however.

Of course, it still doesn't address the problem of the enemy defending after attacking you. There is a short window of opportunity after an enemy attacks where he is not as capable of defending himself - Counterattack capitalizes on this. It must occur during this window. As any other attack doesn't impose a defense penalty, they must occur after the window has expired. Therefore, Counterattack must occur before any other attack.

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Originally Posted by Crispythemighty View Post
Sounds like you've picked a way that works for you. I hope it works out the way you'd like.
As always, I'm concerned about any balance issues that could come up, and if there might be a better way of doing it. The former hasn't been addressed, as it seems most people are opposed to the concept simply for the fact that it disrupts turn order. As for the latter, so far there haven't been any suggestions that are, to me, a better way of doing it than an interrupt.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:51 AM   #33
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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It must occur during this window. As any other attack doesn't impose a defense penalty, they must occur after the window has expired. Therefore, Counterattack must occur before any other attack.
you honesty think that winded is smaller than a second? because the is less than a second between the parry and the counter attack.

and eve if they parry agianse someone else that does not imply in any way they have Closed the opening against you, or you dont continue to follow the opening.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:36 AM   #34
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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you honesty think that winded is smaller than a second? because the is less than a second between the parry and the counter attack.

and eve if they parry agianse someone else that does not imply in any way they have Closed the opening against you, or you dont continue to follow the opening.
The window isn't some magical effect of "that guy parried me so I can't defend against him as well." It's more "that guy avoided (parried, dodged, blocked) my attack, which has left me momentarily open." The reason only the defender can generally take advantage of the opening is because he or she is the only one in the right position to pull it off as an unplanned reaction. If the guy can defend unpenalized, the window is gone. I'll also note that I'd allow someone other than the defender to pull off a Counterattack with a proper Wait maneuver to take advantage of the momentary opening.

As for Judo Throw, the implication is that you are using some of the enemy's momentum against him to knock him down. If he's capable of parrying with the hand he tried to punch you with, it's no longer being used in an attempt to punch you, and that momentum is gone.


Just out of curiosity, why is there such an opposition to a slight disruption of the turn order?
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:07 AM   #35
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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Just out of curiosity, why is there such an opposition to a slight disruption of the turn order?
Because it is only 1 second and you putting an extrea attack in there. and this was one of the main problems with 3rd and one of the reason Spells now have a minum castint time rather than instant.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:31 AM   #36
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Because it is only 1 second and you putting an extrea attack in there. and this was one of the main problems with 3rd and one of the reason Spells now have a minum castint time rather than instant.
I'm not putting an extra attack in there. Taking action early forfeits your action for that round. You still get 1 action per second - it's just that you can take that action a little earlier if someone sets themselves up for a counter.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

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I'm not putting an extra attack in there. Taking action early forfeits your action for that round. You still get 1 action per second - it's just that you can take that action a little earlier if someone sets themselves up for a counter.
And total mess up the turn order and cagh it form a simple flow of next to next to next you have jump from order to order ever round.

You mess with the fact GURPS Fundmently is not you then you, out side of resultion but ever action in a turn for everony happens all in the same second. it is resolved in a set order for playability
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:00 AM   #38
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Kromm's weighed in on this repeatedly, and I think it's in the FAQ.

Letting the Judoka take his turn "early", and then drop back into the turn sequence? Plays MERRY HELL with all sorts of effects that last a number of turns, are measured in turns, etc.

Same reason why there's no random turn order, or "Delaying" to a new point in the initiative and then taking a full action, or whatever.

Check out Wait - Wait limits you to a restricted set of actions once triggered, because you don't have a full turn left to act in. You don't get your turn in the order "set" to the point where you acted, you have to act again on your Speed when it comes up again.

There's no overall "global round" where everyone goes once, and then a new round starts; just a continuous wheel of people individually taking turns going.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Or to put it another way: if you want to parry and then immediately attack before anyone else does anything, take a Wait.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:17 AM   #40
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Default Re: Instant Counterattack

I think the assumption "he's made a defense, so there is no opening to exploit" is flawed. A character's defenses don't refresh until the start of their turn, so this is surely when openings refresh.

What of other effects in a similar vain? If you Feint someone, then someone else interupts you (by Wait or turn order), you still get the feint bonuses, so as long as you can make the attack. A Riposte is just a Counterattack where you take the penalty to your defense (though like deceptive attack, you can't improve it). All these have timings of your next turn. All use the logic of utilising an opening, or making one.

When should the attack making a feint be made, if the opposing character has no opening after making a defense? Or the Riposte, which reflects quicker action than a counterattack?


I find it more than succient to assume openings are there for as long the rules say. If you have an opening you could use for counterattack it may not be there the following turn, but that's a whole second down the line.

Defending against a second opponent doesn't mean there are no openings the first opponent could exploit, only that there were no openings the second opponent could exploit. And things like Feint, Counterattack, Judo Throw and Riposte are about taking the holes in an opponents defense and making them worse for the defender. If there wasn't a hole to be exploited, they would've succesfully defended your counterattack!
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