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Old 02-03-2021, 08:08 PM   #11
kenclary
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Stop overthinking things. The entire point of the post was just that from initiation to landing can take a lot of time, so having there be some separation between "I do this move" and "I do the next move" is fine, both from an abstract and from a realistic perspective.
Exactly.

(Excuse me while I make my first post in [checks record] nearly 6 years.)

Also, breaking the action at "parry or grab" then "throw or whatever" splits it up at points where the character is making a decision (or acting out a reflex). That's much more clean, game-wise. If you tried to do the split in mid-throw, uh, gravity and momentum may have more to say than the character about what happens next.
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Old 02-03-2021, 08:39 PM   #12
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

In the same way, if someone takes a Move manoeuvre, its not like everyone else in the fight is actually still and frozen or that chases involve one character closing the distance, then another widening it, on one-second intervals. Its just handy to break actions into short segments and resolve them one at a time.

I don't think its unrealistic to have something like "in striking at character A, they parry heavily, you use the redirection to turn into a strike against character B but then lose control of your weapon when he voids it" which GURPS represents as a Beat by character A on their turn.
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Old 02-04-2021, 12:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
GURPS 5e will feature multithreading simulation.
heh, can I have a separate tick system for both attacking and defending ;-)
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Old 02-04-2021, 12:59 AM   #14
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Stop overthinking things. The entire point of the post was just that from initiation to landing can take a lot of time, so having there be some separation between "I do this move" and "I do the next move" is fine, both from an abstract and from a realistic perspective.
Quite, if nothing else it is possible for the person this happening to to react to it during it with their own counter or attempt to negate it (not necessarily easy depending on how good the person throwing them is, but possible)

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And there's zero reason for the GM not to say "You were going to follow up your beat with something, but the guy is now over there. Pick something else." Yes, the tactical situation in a fight changed. That's what happens in fights. That's not something you mechanize with rules, it's something you deal with as a GM call on the fly and move on to killin' folks and takin' their stuff.
Yep, I'd let people disengage out of a beat by backing up out of the likely range of the follow up attack. Feints can be spoiled too.
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Old 02-04-2021, 04:56 PM   #15
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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I will note that when I was writing Technical Grappling, my martial arts friends and I hit the dojang, and were surprised to discover that while "parry-to-initiation" of a throw went dang fast, in many cases the person being thrown spent a full second from "off the ground" to "thump." Surprised me, but it led a lot of credibility to certain parts of the GURPS rules that insisted "...on your next turn, you may..."

Some moves were faster than others, of course.
I can really only speak to the girl who had me help her "practice" her Jiu Jitsu throws. I didn't have a full second to figure out why I was upside down. It's not instantaneous but when your punch gets locked you don't have time to think about what you're doing next.
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:56 PM   #16
Plane
 
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
And there's zero reason for the GM not to say "You were going to follow up your beat with something, but the guy is now over there. Pick something else."
The benefit of a Feint (or Beat) inflicting a defense penalty against your attack next turn being unusable because you can't attack them for whatever reason (lack of Reach, got disarmed, got stunned) is a pretty basic one.

The inquiry is more about following up a successful parry with a Beat though: how to go beyond "contact was made" to a "how/whether contact remains sustained until you have an attack ready to capitalize on the contact by using Beat"

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I don't think its unrealistic to have something like "in striking at character A, they parry heavily, you use the redirection to turn into a strike against character B but then lose control of your weapon when he voids it" which GURPS represents as a Beat by character A on their turn.
What you end up having there is that A's choice could be made after the target teleports 10 yards nearby to attack B. If a heavy parry is going to throw you off, it probably ought to do so instantaneously.

To have a kind of "penalized defense success gives an attack" we do have Aggressive Parry though converting that into a Feint or Beat requires considerations like what to do about hit locations (feints normally don't use them but AP is designed to require them for whatever your parried) and damage (-1 is +2tech and -2or-1/die is +4 so that's +6, so removing that would be a -6 technique penalty)

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I'd let people disengage out of a beat by backing up out of the likely range of the follow up attack. Feints can be spoiled too.
If sword guy is blocked by shield guy, shield guy would be able to use his next attack to Beat the sword.

If sword guy backs up 2 yards (out of range of the reach 1 shield) shield guy could make a 2-step committed attack to narrow that gap and make an attack.

In this circumstance it's tempting to interpret that as "the sword and shield never lost contact, shield guy was walking forward as sword guy backed up"

That seems to rule out the idea that the sword guy could possibly back up fast enough to create a gap-of-disconnect.

Plus you definitely get a gap-of-disconnect if sword-guy teleported 2 yards back rather than walking it.
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Old 02-05-2021, 05:24 AM   #17
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

A beat is just striking the opponent's weapon out of position. You hit the weapon instead of him. It doesn't require sustained contact, blade to blade. (Fencers would call that a "bind", not a "beat". Though if you want to get really technical, modern fencers have several different terms for binds, depending on exactly how its done and where out of line you're taking the opponent's weapon.)

As with a Feint, it's possible that you disrupt the attacker's stance and position enough that you don't have to remain there.

If you just can't stand the notion that there's enough time in a turn to step away and step back, then simply houserule that such a step away and back cancels any pending Feints, Beats, Ruses, or similar delayed effects. No one seems to be arguing that if you step away and stay away, that you somehow get a (supposedly) much delayed, remote benefit versus that target that you can't even reach. That's a different intermediate result of a very similar series of actual events. (One that players would choose precisely because it reflects that distance and that's what they want to portray.)

As has been said, GURPS turns aren't distinct, sequential, events in a global clock of universal time, so that way of thinking about the game mechanics isn't actually the same model. RAW is perfectly happy with a Beat lasting "all turn long" so that entirely other figures have a chance to take advantage of the opening. That's a lot more happening -- if you assume that all that action is in order and sequential -- than the original Beater just stepping away and back. So such a houserule isn't itself going to be particularly consistent with other possible linearizations for resolution of the chaotic swirl of nearly simultaneous events. But it's your game. If your groups' sensibilities doesn't encompass someone being discombobulated long enough for someone to step away and back, still taking advantage of the Beat (that someone else in the party five complete turns later could take advantage of), then just make it so.
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:45 AM   #18
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

Someone being able to attack with a sword or punch and then step back to prevent you from turning a successful Parry into a Beat/Throw honestly doesn't make sense, because the Beat or Throw happen immediately after the Parry. However, as I said upthread, you have to decide how, as GM, you want to handle this. Doing things as they are written invites the above oddity, but honestly that's often the least-bad choice, given it requires edge-case scenarios for the problems to crop up and you can typically just brush it off as a consequence of the chaos of combat. Requiring a Wait makes the options much less attractive (unless combined with a bonus of some sort, but a lot of tweaking would be necessary to figure out what sort of bonus was enough without being too much). Letting the character take their turn early, but then skipping it when their turn properly comes around, can be complicated at the table, particularly with how to handle iteration penalties for defenses. Letting the character do such as a free action (that is, you Beat immediately after Parrying, and then get to take your normal turn anyway) makes the options too powerful, in that they functionally give the character a free attack (note things like Aggressive Parry and Grabbing Parry deal fairly poor damage, but that doesn't translate well to things like Beat and Throw, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for a Counterattack - which falls in the same category of Interrupts - to do lower damage).

The only thing I could think of that might be reliably usable here would be some sort of variable-initiative system, but I was never really happy with either attempt I made at such in the past.
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Old 02-05-2021, 10:16 AM   #19
kenclary
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

If you really want an uninterrupted flow from their attack to your beat (or throw, or whatever), use a Stop Hit. That's a clean, established mechanic.

Otherwise, if they break contact between your Parry and your followup, they break contact. It's normal. A normal Parry doesn't actually constitute some form of grapple or "capture." Some techniques just let you follow a Parry to skip a setup attack.

Martial Arts has "Hand Catch" and Technical Grappling has "Grabbing Parry," for parries that establishes a grapple, if you really want to prevent them from breaking contact before your turn.
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Old 02-05-2021, 10:29 AM   #20
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Beat setup: does a block or parry establish sustained contact until the next seco

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
If you really want an uninterrupted flow from their attack to your beat (or throw, or whatever), use a Stop Hit. That's a clean, established mechanic.

Otherwise, if they break contact between your Parry and your followup, they break contact. It's normal. A normal Parry doesn't actually constitute some form of grapple or "capture." Some techniques just let you follow a Parry to skip a setup attack.

Martial Arts has "Hand Catch" and Technical Grappling has "Grabbing Parry," for parries that establishes a grapple, if you really want to prevent them from breaking contact before your turn.
Fantastic Dungeon Grappling introduces the concept of a "bind" for swords and shields as well, which is a grapple, but one for which you can break free simply by increasing the distance between fighters (no roll is required, just movement).

We do a lot of manipulation of the other guy's weapon and shield when I (these days, bother to) attend the martial arts classes I take. It's a near-constant state of feint, sword/shield bind, and Beat, looking to unready or disadvantage the weapon (penalty to defense/attack...simulated nicely by the penalties induced by CP on target).

In my Korean sword/staff/spear training, the beats we did on the other's weapon were only rarely persistent [1]. Just a short, sharp rap to open up the centerline. Frequently, the first beat pre-supposed the reaction of "OH NOES, MY SWORD!" making the opponent over-commit to re-establishing the line, which allowed a *second* beat, entry, and telling strike.

GURPS is set up to allow any of that to be described by "make a roll, and on your next turn, you may . . . " without the need for overly detailed bookkeeping.

It also is set up to allow the bookkeeping...but *requiring* it is a great way to turn folks away from a game that already has a perception of burdensome overhead.


[1] We do train the clinch; this is a very light sword-to-sword grapple, usually using the forte of the blade, or even the handle, with only enough force applied to sense the other guy's motion and intent. It is a position of limited value if the other fighter can punch you in the face, do a takedown, stab you with a dagger, kick you in the softer bits, or shoot you with the revolver in their off hand. But in a kendo/kumtoogi point-based match, it works out.
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