Quick Question about Holdout

[Tallor]

What kind of bonus to Holdout would a garrote have? I imagine it's supposed to be stealthy, so a Holdout 0 at worst.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Tallor

What kind of bonus to Holdout would a garrote have? I imagine it's supposed to be stealthy, so a Holdout 0 at worst.

Looking at Basic Set, p. 100, I could imagine it being anywhere from a +1 bonus to a -1 penalty, depending on how big the non-string/wire part is that the wielder holds on to.

So, a Holdout 0 for a typical design looks go to me.

[Edges]

It would depend on Tech Level as more advanced materials can be more compact

[Imbicatus]

Or much higher for a garrote disguised in another item. There was the wrist watch garrote in a Bond film, or the weighted sash of the thugee.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Edges

It would depend on Tech Level as more advanced materials can be more compact

A garrote has to be long enough to reach around the victim's neck plus a bit, and the handles have to be long enough to fit into a human hand. That remains true regardless of what they're made out of.

Advanced materials might lighten it a bit -- though they're already very light -- or let you have even thinner wire -- but that's not a limiting factor even currently.

You could also postulate "monowire" garrotes that actually slice heads off rather than strangle, but that's really a different weapon.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

A garrote has to be long enough to reach around the victim's neck plus a bit, and the handles have to be long enough to fit into a human hand. That remains true regardless of what they're made out of.

Advanced materials might lighten it a bit -- though they're already very light -- or let you have even thinner wire -- but that's not a limiting factor even currently.

You could also postulate "monowire" garrotes that actually slice heads off rather than strangle, but that's really a different weapon.

You may be right.

I was thinking that the kind of steel cable, durable springs, and fine casing that allow a garrote to be hidden in something like a watch or a couple of rings just isn't available at say, TL 2. At low tech level, you may only have rope or leather which has to be pretty thick to reliably not break (or a heavier chain that could be harder to conceal). I may only be a matter of a +1 though. Not sure.

[Bruno]

You can (to a certain point) make folding or telescoping handles, but I suspect that's like any folding or telescoping tool - sacrifices a little reliability and/or ergonomics. Having a garotte that digs painfully enough into your own fingers that you can't pull hard enough on it seems counter-productive.

[starslayer]

The garrote could be two components that seperately don't resemble anything, which could work as a great bonus to hold out for identifying it as a weapon.

Example:
1. A length of thin wire with knots on each end.
2. A pair of gloves with rigid reinforcements around the index and pinky fingers

[Bruno]

You get a similar effect re the gloves with e.g. a short rod or two rings that lock together.

The problem is that this distributes the force on only two of your fingers, and that in turn restricts how much force you a) can apply for mechanical/strength reasons and b) are willing to apply for pain reasons. And we're back to getting a small bonus to Holdout in exchange for an ergonomics penalty to damage, effective ST, or combat skill.

Carrying a heavy bag of groceries with only two fingers instead of your entire hand is a good real life example of the problem.

You have to hang on to that garotte for ~30 seconds while you establish a blood choke with a struggling victim (if you can). If you can't then you could have two or three minutes of strangling someone who's most definitely wriggling around, longer if you want to kill them entirely with the garotte rather than finish them off some other way once they've passed out.

I have crappy Grip Strength. I can pick up an 8kg bag of groceries with a wider cloth handle with two fingers briefly. If I tried to cart it around, either my fingers would just collapse or I would "voluntarily" drop it because ow ow ow ow ow. A professional strangler I would assume would have stronger hands, but they're also dealing with a much bigger and more protesting "bag of groceries".

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Bruno

You get a similar effect re the gloves with e.g. a short rod or two rings that lock together.

The problem is that this distributes the force on only two of your fingers, and that in turn restricts how much force you a) can apply for mechanical/strength reasons and b) are willing to apply for pain reasons. And we're back to getting a small bonus to Holdout in exchange for an ergonomics penalty to damage, effective ST, or combat skill.

Carrying a heavy bag of groceries with only two fingers instead of your entire hand is a good real life example of the problem.

You have to hang on to that garotte for ~30 seconds while you establish a blood choke with a struggling victim (if you can). If you can't then you could have two or three minutes of strangling someone who's most definitely wriggling around, longer if you want to kill them entirely with the garotte rather than finish them off some other way once they've passed out.

I have crappy Grip Strength. I can pick up an 8kg bag of groceries with a wider cloth handle with two fingers briefly. If I tried to cart it around, either my fingers would just collapse or I would "voluntarily" drop it because ow ow ow ow ow. A professional strangler I would assume would have stronger hands, but they're also dealing with a much bigger and more protesting "bag of groceries".

1. I do agree.

2. I mentioned the reinforcement on the index and pinky because the highest level of stress will be where the cord wraps around. Wearing the gives would this allow full use of all fingers for the pull/hold (there trivial among of dig in on the inside fingers being absorbed by the gloves)