Why do demons and devils want souls?

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

This^.

Appreciate the compliment.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

It's a mistake (one made by D&D and other games and stories) to characterize evil as a motivating principle, that is, 'x' does evil because of dedication to some abstract 'ideal of evil'. Genuine evil is more about self-interest out of all restraint, or at the further level, simple hatred for its own sake.

When we give demonic entities a rational, economic motive for behaving as they do, we turn them into something else.

In the cosmology, I use for my campaigns and published works, the primary motivation of demons is their desire to reshape creation in their image instead of God (or the One in my settings).

The problem is that the results of doing that are incompatible with the existence of life either physically, spiritually, or magically. But Demons in my setting are not nihilists who desire to end all existence. At the end of the day they want to be the Lords of Creation in place of the One. The one rational thing they can be counted on to do (for the most part) is to preserve their existence.

To make a long story short, Demons have driven themselves insane trying to do the impossible. Maiming themselves spiritually in pursuit of their goal to the point where they are incapable of doing good, acting rationally, or even being redeemed.

Sounds a bit boring, and it is except for the fact that individual demons vary in their irrationality. So how this manifest differs and sometimes is subtle enough to fool the PCs. Or make for an interesting antagonist for the party.

And there is enough overlap between the different groups I have refereed over the years that one of the things experienced players warn those new to my campaigns not to deal with demons under any circumstances due to a few memorable incidents where a demon corrupted a PC into doing evil.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Appreciate the compliment.



In the cosmology, I use for my campaigns and published works, the primary motivation of demons is their desire to reshape creation in their image instead of God (or the One in my settings).

The problem is that the results of doing that are incompatible with the existence of life either physically, spiritually, or magically. But Demons in my setting are not nihilists who desire to end all existence. At the end of the day they want to be the Lords of Creation in place of the One. The one rational thing they can be counted on to do (for the most part) is to preserve their existence.

To make a long story short, Demons have driven themselves insane trying to do the impossible. Maiming themselves spiritually in pursuit of their goal to the point where they are incapable of doing good, acting rationally, or even being redeemed.

Sounds a bit boring, and it is except for the fact that individual demons vary in their irrationality. So how this manifest differs and sometimes is subtle enough to fool the PCs. Or make for an interesting antagonist for the party.

And there is enough overlap between the different groups I have refereed over the years that one of the things experienced players warn those new to my campaigns not to deal with demons under any circumstances due to a few memorable incidents where a demon corrupted a PC into doing evil.

That's how it's supposed to work.

One of my favorite examples of this is the old 'clever fellow makes Faustian bargain, outwits the Devil, and gets away with the goods and keeps his soul'. The thing is...who do you think spreads those stories? :lol: Demonic powers like clever people with lots of pride and not much humility...

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Evil" isn't really a motivation, I suppose. Sadism or Hatred comes close, but those have a bit more nuance and characterization. A sadistic character is all eagerness and pleasure about what they do. A character driven by hatred is filled with rage by their target and has more of a goal-driven approach. A character being evil just because doesn't seem to have underlying emotions.

Exactly. Evil is an absence. It's the lack of self-restraint, self-discipline, love and caring for others (or at least a lack of respect for others' personhood), a lack in the most extreme cases even of legitimate self-love. This last is the kind of corruption where someone is quite prepared to go down himself or herself as long as they can hurt you somehow in the process.

To use Tolkien as an example, Sauron is not dedicated to the cause of Evil. He is dedicated to the cause of Sauron, and Sauron's desires, wants, needs, and interests. He wants to rule the world, not in the name of Evil but in the name of Sauron.

He once served another, far greater Ainu: Morgoth. But again, Sauron served Morgoth, not Evil.

Morgoth was far more corrupt than Sauron. Sauron wanted to rule the world, Morgoth, at his core, wanted to annihilate the world, ruling it was a step to that end. Sauron had not yet reached that level of corruption when the Ring was destroyed.

[Whitelaughter]

One answer from mythology is raw materials. If a soul is either a copy of the body or the original blueprint, then each soul provides a body's worth of stuff to convert into useful objects.

Frex in Norse mythology, Naglfar or Naglfari (Old Norse "nail farer") is a boat made entirely from the fingernails and toenails of the dead. Human hair could be turned into clothing, bone and keratin used to turn the clothing into armor.
Bone makes reasonable stone age weaponry.

I flipped this in Amber to have the demons providing weapons and armour to the Chaos Lords; if the Logrus power was used to acquire an item from the Black Zone, it would be torn from a demon's body - and then the demon who provided the item would enter its breeding cycle, resulting in the demons breeding for every more useful items for their lords.

[Ericbarker306]

Back in an old setting I made back in early college I had the idea that devils wanted souls (along with everyone else really) in order to ascend into higher powers/beings as everyone's soul was all part of the same Ur God so with more pieces one could reach even further power. How everyone tried to get more depended on the being/person. Some made cults that tried to combine everyone's souls. Some tried to essentially induce CHIM in order to master what they had. Others said **** it and tried to make their piece the best piece around.

[Boomerang]

Maybe they don’t actually want souls, maybe their own souls are so twisted and corrupt that the proximity of good souls inflicts physical pain. The souls of innocents especially children inflict such agony that only the most powerful demons can approach near them. Demons and devils can alleviate their pain by separating souls from their physical body or corrupting good souls to evil. Achieving either task is much easier when they can approach lone individuals who are already partly comprised.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

One answer from mythology is raw materials. If a soul is either a copy of the body or the original blueprint, then each soul provides a body's worth of stuff to convert into useful objects.

Frex in Norse mythology, Naglfar or Naglfari (Old Norse "nail farer") is a boat made entirely from the fingernails and toenails of the dead. Human hair could be turned into clothing, bone and keratin used to turn the clothing into armor.
Bone makes reasonable stone age weaponry.

The video game Succubus (and I presume its predecessor, Agony) notes that there aren't any raw materials to work with in Hell other than the bodies of the damned. As a result, all of the weapons and armor in the game are quite clearly made from human flesh and bones.

[Lovewyrm]

Cause the concept of a daemon has been corrupted by abrahamic culture displacement and I guess daemons were too folkloric and close to divinity to be allowed to remain good things.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Cause the concept of a daemon has been corrupted by abrahamic culture displacement and I guess daemons were too folkloric and close to divinity to be allowed to remain good things.

From my understanding, the Hebrew word shedim was essentially a term for "foreign gods," and this got translated into Greek as daemon, as the two concepts were pretty similar (the shedim are also the basis for the Islamic djinn), but at the time there was a big emphasis on dualism (from Zoroastrianism), so they gained a negative connotation as they were essentially "gods who aren't God" (putting them in opposition to God, which under dualism would mean they were on the evil side of things). But that all seems fairly divorced from the topic of the thread.

I will admit, however, to liking the concept of demons being a bit more neutral. You could still have such demons have need of souls - indeed, if going with the shedim as "foreign gods," and using the (modern?) concept of gods requiring worship, it may be that the demons need souls - either outright or in the form of dutiful worship - because they are minor gods, and gods need such to survive/grow powerful/etc.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

From my understanding, the Hebrew word shedim was essentially a term for "foreign gods," and this got translated into Greek as daemon, as the two concepts were pretty similar (the shedim are also the basis for the Islamic djinn), but at the time there was a big emphasis on dualism (from Zoroastrianism), so they gained a negative connotation as they were essentially "gods who aren't God" (putting them in opposition to God, which under dualism would mean they were on the evil side of things). But that all seems fairly divorced from the topic of the thread.

I will admit, however, to liking the concept of demons being a bit more neutral. You could still have such demons have need of souls - indeed, if going with the shedim as "foreign gods," and using the (modern?) concept of gods requiring worship, it may be that the demons need souls - either outright or in the form of dutiful worship - because they are minor gods, and gods need such to survive/grow powerful/etc.

I mean the actual Greek daimon thing. Doesn't matter how it's seen in Hebrew.
The rub is that the native culture/faith was displaced/corrupted by Christianity, an Abrahamic faith.
The fact that a foreign, missionary faith came to their lands and native folklore was deemed wrong and/or evil.

That's why demons are bad.
They weren't before. Then they were.

Edit:
And the word demon is used, after all. Not shedim.
Demon. He or she has a demon. Get an exorcist.

P.S.:
And while it's possible to discuss the grey area, or goodness or evilness of some views of whatever came before.
We shouldn't forget how casual it can be for something to be 'of the devil' or evil.
Like the 'devils bridge' (Video seems to be in Indian...I picked it cause it's short and has the name in the title)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km-oeNUGiGI

Evil bridge, right there. Were there nuances when the bridge was made? Was it really bad in the eyes of those who made it? Dunno.
But it's of the devil cause Christianity has the devil.