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Old 06-25-2010, 08:36 AM   #31
aesir23
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
I didn't say otherwise. I don't think immunity to locks is the only game effect of having flexible limbs.
What other effects did you have in mind? If they can be used as manipulators, that's it's own advantage as discussed before. If they can navigate difficult terrain that's it's own Perk (Terrain adaptation: uneven). Constrictor is another possibility.

I think buying "Extra Flexibile" for your extra legs, at any cost, results in a very poorly defined advantage. No one seems to know what it does for you in purely mechanical terms.

Better, I think, to determine what game effects you want from your legs and buy those advantages, rather than getting caught up in the need to buy something that's named "Extra Flexible Legs".
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
What other effects did you have in mind? If they can be used as manipulators, that's it's own advantage as discussed before. If they can navigate difficult terrain that's it's own Perk (Terrain adaptation: uneven). Constrictor is another possibility.

I think buying "Extra Flexibile" for your extra legs, at any cost, results in a very poorly defined advantage. No one seems to know what it does for you in purely mechanical terms.

Better, I think, to determine what game effects you want from your legs and buy those advantages, rather than getting caught up in the need to buy something that's named "Extra Flexible Legs".
You're right. If you can identify and list all the game effects in advance, yes, it's ideal and we should do so. Sometimes it's easy -- if you have an ability that does 1d of burning damage at a distance and nothing else, just buy an Innate Attack. Simple.

However, sometimes it's not so easy. "Having extra-flexible limbs" is an example. The description of Extra-Flexible on arms -- canonical enhancement -- simply says, "can always reach and work with other limbs, regardless of body positioning, general layout, or 'right' and 'left'" (p. 53). There's no stats, no bonus or penalty, no purely mechanical terms in the text. You may call this "a very poorly defined advantage". Nevertheless, arms that are Extra-Flexible are rather expensive: they cost 5 points mutiplied by the number of arms. The lack of game-mechanical definitions doesn't mean that it does nothing for the character in game. Rather, they are supposed to do everything that's reasonably explained as effects of having flexible arms. The same is true for Extra-Flexible legs.

I don't think attaching Extra-Flexible (+50%) on legs is unreasonably expenive. It should be much cheaper since their in-game utility is more limited than that of arms, and in fact it is much cheaper than flexible arms: it's just extra 3, 5 or 8 points for all the legs the character has. Think of it as a loosely-defined bunch of several perks like Unlockable Legs, Terrain Adaptation (Uneven), etc.

Listing all the effects as specific advantages/perks in advance and then summing them up is undoubtedly correct -- if you can actually do so. That method often results in frustrating players by the GM saying, "No, you can't. What you paid for is Unlockable Legs perk and nothing more, regardless if you call it 'foot tentacles'. That perk doesn't mean your leg can reach underneath the bed unusually and feel for the handcuffs' key with your toe". I often experienced situations like this.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:59 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
You're right. If you can identify and list all the game effects in advance, yes, it's ideal and we should do so. Sometimes it's easy -- if you have an ability that does 1d of burning damage at a distance and nothing else, just buy an Innate Attack. Simple.

However, sometimes it's not so easy. "Having extra-flexible limbs" is an example. The description of Extra-Flexible on arms -- canonical enhancement -- simply says, "can always reach and work with other limbs, regardless of body positioning, general layout, or 'right' and 'left'" (p. 53). There's no stats, no bonus or penalty, no purely mechanical terms in the text. You may call this "a very poorly defined advantage". Nevertheless, arms that are Extra-Flexible are rather expensive: they cost 5 points mutiplied by the number of arms. The lack of game-mechanical definitions doesn't mean that it does nothing for the character in game. Rather, they are supposed to do everything that's reasonably explained as effects of having flexible arms. The same is true for Extra-Flexible legs.

I don't think attaching Extra-Flexible (+50%) on legs is unreasonably expenive. It should be much cheaper since their in-game utility is more limited than that of arms, and in fact it is much cheaper than flexible arms: it's just extra 3, 5 or 8 points for all the legs the character has. Think of it as a loosely-defined bunch of several perks like Unlockable Legs, Terrain Adaptation (Uneven), etc.

Listing all the effects as specific advantages/perks in advance and then summing them up is undoubtedly correct -- if you can actually do so. That method often results in frustrating players by the GM saying, "No, you can't. What you paid for is Unlockable Legs perk and nothing more, regardless if you call it 'foot tentacles'. That perk doesn't mean your leg can reach underneath the bed unusually and feel for the handcuffs' key with your toe". I often experienced situations like this.
Well argued, I see your point. Problems come in if you want your Extra Flexible legs to also give you the effects of pre-existing advantages. That leads to equally frustrating scenarios such as:

"I hang from the grate with my tenticles."
"You can't do that, they aren't prehensile."
"But they're flexible enough, why wouldn't I be able to?"
"Because you didn't buy them as foot manipulators, etc...."

I guess I just have a hard time imagining extra-flexible foot tenticles that could never be used as hands or arms.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Well argued, I see your point. Problems come in if you want your Extra Flexible legs to also give you the effects of pre-existing advantages. That leads to equally frustrating scenarios such as:

"I hang from the grate with my tenticles."
"You can't do that, they aren't prehensile."
"But they're flexible enough, why wouldn't I be able to?"
"Because you didn't buy them as foot manipulators, etc...."

I guess I just have a hard time imagining extra-flexible foot tenticles that could never be used as hands or arms.
A simple application of "when in doubt, roll and shout".

A normal human can hang from the grate with his hands. Let's say it's an unmodified Acrobatics or Crimbing roll. Also, he could attempt hanging with his normal legs, but it'd be a very difficult task that would impose a heavy penalty. Let's say it's an Acrobatics-7 or Crimbing-7 roll. Then, "an attempt of hanging from the grate with tentacular legs" will fall somewhere between "having normal legs" and "having unusual legs that work just like arms".

Here's how I'd game if I were the GM (sorry in advance for poor English):
Player: "I hang from the grate with my footicles."
Me as GM: "Do you try to hang with your legs? Difficult. Roll against Acrobatics or Crimbing at, well . . . -7."
Player: "That's too big. They're flexible enough, why can't I try more easily?"
Me: "I see. Okay, then I'll let you roll at -4. Go ahead."
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan
I don't think attaching Extra-Flexible (+50%) on legs is unreasonably expenive. It should be much cheaper since their in-game utility is more limited than that of arms, and in fact it is much cheaper than flexible arms: it's just extra 3, 5 or 8 points for all the legs the character has. Think of it as a loosely-defined bunch of several perks like Unlockable Legs, Terrain Adaptation (Uneven), etc.
That the point cost will be less for legs than for arms obfuscates the issue, I think. Keeping the same %age modifier implies that the functionality of either trait is being enhanced the same, proportionally. AIS, I do not think this is the case. Arms seem to gain more for being Extra-Flexible than legs would. I am not sure that +50% is a reasonable value, given how loosely defined the enhancement is, but working off of it, the value of that mod for Extra Legs should be something less... maybe +25-+40%.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:59 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

I think the value is fair for legs if you don't limit yourself to two dimensions. Being able to get your feet up around head level and use them as crude manipulators is fairly valuable. Don't forget that leg cost is already halved relative to arms, too . . . Extra-Flexible costs 2 × (50/10) = 10 points for two arms, but just (50/10) = 5 points for two legs. In game terms, I'd let this eliminate the -2 to DX for using a leg for a task normally assigned to an arm, such as kicking instead of punching, punting a ball instead of throwing it, or grappling with the legs. Just the kicking and grappling bits alone would be worth 6 points as Martial Arts techniques.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:14 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
That the point cost will be less for legs than for arms obfuscates the issue, I think. Keeping the same %age modifier implies that the functionality of either trait is being enhanced the same, proportionally.
The absolute net change in point value reflects the change in functionality. The reduced cost in actual character points suggests how much less useful Extra Flexible legs are compared to arms - and the fact that the number of legs you can enhance shoots up nonlinearly, compared to the cost for arms remaining at a 1:1 relationship supports it as well.

The percentage value of any enhancement needs to be picked with the actual change in point cost in mind, as well as the relative change. Some enhancements end up more-or-less duplicating abilities normally covered by other advantages - see the various forms of Projection in Powers, for example. The percentage value there was chosen based on what percentage was required to achieve the desired absolute point cost.

Extra Flexible is less awesome for legs, so it costs less points to make them extra flexible, and you can buy extra flexibility in bulk for legs pretty cheaply.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Are mollusks susceptible to Arm Lock and Leg Lock?

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The percentage value of any enhancement needs to be picked with the actual change in point cost in mind, as well as the relative change. Some enhancements end up more-or-less duplicating abilities normally covered by other advantages - see the various forms of Projection in Powers, for example. The percentage value there was chosen based on what percentage was required to achieve the desired absolute point cost.

Extra Flexible is less awesome for legs, so it costs less points to make them extra flexible, and you can buy extra flexibility in bulk for legs pretty cheaply.
The point, as it relates to Extra Legs, may be moot due to Kromm's post. I do not think that the net change in point cost should be the determiner of the value of a modifier, though... not in a general sense, at least. If an enhancement provides clear-cut benefits to trait A [+1 to such-and-such skills, extra capability missing in the standard form, whatever...], but some of those benefits do not apply if that enhancement modifies trait B [you cannot use such-and-such skills with B], then the enhancement is obviously worth less when applied to B.
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