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Old 04-25-2018, 11:03 AM   #1
Tornado
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Default Alternate Abilite

Hi Guys.
Im creating a speedster.

Can i use Time Sense (45pts) as a Alternative Ability (1/5) of Altered Time Rate?

And when i use Altered Time Rate i cannot use Time sense?
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:22 AM   #2
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Alternate Abilite

I assume by "Time Sense" you mean Enhanced Time Sense? If that's the case, then yes, you could do this. As a GM, I'd like to see a good explanation for why they're alternate abilities of each other, though - why are they manifestations of the same thing, and why does using one preclude using the other? Does the character have limited "speed force" they can use, and can either speed up their mind (Enhanced Time Sense) or their body (Altered Time Rate) but not both?
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:38 AM   #3
Tornado
 
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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I assume by "Time Sense" you mean Enhanced Time Sense? If that's the case, then yes, you could do this. As a GM, I'd like to see a good explanation for why they're alternate abilities of each other, though - why are they manifestations of the same thing, and why does using one preclude using the other? Does the character have limited "speed force" they can use, and can either speed up their mind (Enhanced Time Sense) or their body (Altered Time Rate) but not both?
Yes, u all right. They have the same origin. The experiment is based on speed, but to actually see on high speed i need Enhanced Time Sense. In order, when the experiment was used to create a humam with high speed, Enhanced Time Sense was one of the results.
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:41 AM   #4
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Alternate Abilite

That doesn't sound like you want ETS to shut down when the person is moving at high speed, then.
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:47 AM   #5
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Alternate Abilite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Hi Guys.
Im creating a speedster.

Can i use Time Sense (45pts) as a Alternative Ability (1/5) of Altered Time Rate?

And when i use Altered Time Rate i cannot use Time sense?
Alternative abilities can not be used at the same time. That's why you get the price break.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:40 PM   #6
Culture20
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Re: Alternate Abilite

Altered Time Rate provides some of the same benefits as Enhanced Time Sense. The only huge benefit that ETS provides over ATR+Combat Reflexes is ETS’ “always act first before people without ETS” but that’s not as useful to have if it robs you of your extra actions (as an Alternative Ability to ATR).
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:30 PM   #7
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Alternate Abilite

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Originally Posted by Culture20 View Post
Altered Time Rate provides some of the same benefits as Enhanced Time Sense.
That's actually mostly untrue. ETS and ATR have fairly little overlap in what they actually do. ETS greatly increases your perception of time. That allows you to do things like see a bullet in flight and defend against it, even though you didn't see the shooter, including parrying such attacks. It also allows you to complete some purely-mental actions almost instantly - take just a turn to make a Tactics roll, for example, at the start of a fight.

Altered Time Rate, on the other hand, does let you take extra actions in combat, but it doesn't have the mental speed-boost of ETS. You're never thinking faster than normal multiplied by your level of ATR, and that has its own limitations. It doesn't matter how fast you physically act, you can't parry a bullet in flight, and if it would normally take 30 seconds to come up with a tactical plan, and you've got ATR 1, you're not going to finish it faster than 15 seconds from now.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:28 AM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
{ATR} doesn't have the mental speed-boost of ETS. You're never thinking faster than normal multiplied by your level of ATR
"Never"? ATR does let you think faster (certainly in the sense of taking Concentrate Maneuvers), as you say. So when does ATR catch up to ETS?

ATR also lets you Move at high speed, so it presumably incorporates enough perception and reaction time improvement that you don't accidentally slam into every wall and tree because you simply move fast without having a corresponding increase in the mental processing power to make use of that speed, thus being unable to react to your own movement, or be blinded by Doppler shift of light rays out of the visual range, or whatever. (To represent the latter, you need a Temporary Disadvantage on your extreme ATR to subtract that perceptual improvement.)

A record fastball is about 45 m/s. A record tennis serve is about 70 m/s. Those are both able to be "parried" by people that, while athletically gifted, are presumably not superhuman. Handgun and rifle bullets range around 300 - 1000 m/s, so maybe 15 times as fast. Shouldn't ATR 15 then let you parry bullets, as they're moving no faster, relatively speaking, than sports equipment for normal humans?

"Buy the effects, not the name" suggests that builds should throw in ETS at some point because it makes sense for speedsters. ATR doesn't (for instance) improve defenses on its own just because you're fast. You have to buy Enhanced defenses to represent that aspect of the superpower. But ETS isn't leveled, so it's not clear exactly at what level of ATR you should have it, much less "need" it given its lack of mechanical effects for anything other than pure perception and thought.

The actual effects listed in the text for ETS don't include parrying bullets. In fact, the text explicitly rules out moving faster in reaction to quicker perception; ETS is purely mental. (The parrying bullets reference comes from the description for the Parry Missile Weapons skill, where there's a note that says ETS lets you parry bullets with this skill at -5, despite the ETS description. ETS alone sounds like you could see that the bullet was likely to hit you, and you perceived its path enough to know where your lightsaber ought to be placed, but still don't have the speed to do actually do that. PMW says it's okay at a penalty, but the penalty doesn't take into account levels of ATR or potential levels of ETS.)
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:14 AM   #9
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
"Never"? ATR does let you think faster (certainly in the sense of taking Concentrate Maneuvers), as you say. So when does ATR catch up to ETS?

A record fastball is about 45 m/s. A record tennis serve is about 70 m/s. Those are both able to be "parried" by people that, while athletically gifted, are presumably not superhuman. Handgun and rifle bullets range around 300 - 1000 m/s, so maybe 15 times as fast. Shouldn't ATR 15 then let you parry bullets, as they're moving no faster, relatively speaking, than sports equipment for normal humans?
The problem, though, is that Alternate Time Rate never seems to affect your "passive" reflexes. It certainly never improves your Basic Speed or lets you go first in combat, and its only effect on defenses is when you specifically take one of your extra maneuvers to focus on defense by taking All-Out Defense. Given all that, I'd say the answer to "When doe ATR let you parry bullets" is "never". You only get whatever enhanced reaction speed that ATR allows when you're actually acting, and bullets, usually, come in outside your action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes
The actual effects listed in the text for ETS don't include parrying bullets.
Yeah, sorry, I was looking at Martial Arts (p. 44) for that, which clarifies some of the effects of ETS in combat. That's also where it clarifies that ETS lets you dodge (not parry) a sniper's bullet, which is not normally possible.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:40 AM   #10
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Alternate Abilite

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The actual effects listed in the text for ETS don't include parrying bullets.
References elsewhere in the text are still effects listed in the text.
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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
PMW says it's okay at a penalty, but the penalty doesn't take into account levels of ATR or potential levels of ETS.)
Probably because ATR does not affect defenses (except by permitting you to take all-out defense as one of your actions) and ETS does not come in levels.
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