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Old 01-23-2018, 08:09 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Greetings, all!

Has the ambiguity of the precise nature of Double-Jointed and Extra-Flexible Arms (Extra or otherwise) ever been sorted out? Both allow extra options in combat such as parrying/blocking attacks from the back. However, DJ provides skill modifiers while EFA does not. Octopodes have EFA on six of their arms, but not DJ. What exactly does EFA provide that DJ doesn't that makes it worth buying for so many arms and can't be substituted by taking DJ?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Double-Jointed extends the range of motion of the body (giving specific skill bonuses and some minor combat bonuses) while EFA allows the arms to function in combat regardless of facing (giving specific combat bonuses). It is best though to combine both, which is what an octopus should have.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Double-Jointed extends the range of motion of the body (giving specific skill bonuses and some minor combat bonuses) while EFA allows the arms to function in combat regardless of facing (giving specific combat bonuses). It is best though to combine both, which is what an octopus should have.
Both EFA and DJ allow one to function in combat regardless of facing, though. So what's the hidden benefit that makes EFA worth the extra points? And what is it that octopodes lack that they don't have DJ (and thus don't have its more broadly-applicable noncombat skill bonuses)?
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Both EFA and DJ allow one to function in combat regardless of facing, though. So what's the hidden benefit that makes EFA worth the extra points? And what is it that octopodes lack that they don't have DJ (and thus don't have its more broadly-applicable noncombat skill bonuses)?
This doesn't follow. They DON'T both allow you ignore facing. DJ gives the skill bonus and allows you to ignore a chunk of penalties from close quarters. Doesn't even hint at ignoring facing.

Extra-Flexible arms allow the EF arm to always reach and work with other limbs, but says absolutely nothing about ignoring facing in combat. At best that means you could pick a side for your shield without actually moving the shield to a different arm. But it doesn't allow you to make blocks to your rear hex absent some other advantage.

Where are you getting the ignore facing exception from?

As for EF vs DJ pricing, EF arms can't be Judo Locked, only Wrenched, but I believe that is introduced in Martial Arts. If you have 360 deg Vision, I could see an argument for allowing EF arms to attack to your rear facing ("reach and work with other limbs, regardless of body positioning, general layout...") without the -2 for a "clumsy angle". GM Call. DJ definitely doesn't do that though.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
This doesn't follow. They DON'T both allow you ignore facing. DJ gives the skill bonus and allows you to ignore a chunk of penalties from close quarters. Doesn't even hint at ignoring facing.

Extra-Flexible arms allow the EF arm to always reach and work with other limbs, but says absolutely nothing about ignoring facing in combat. At best that means you could pick a side for your shield without actually moving the shield to a different arm. But it doesn't allow you to make blocks to your rear hex absent some other advantage.

Where are you getting the ignore facing exception from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by B390
you cannot parry an attack that
comes from the other side of your body,
only one that comes from the same
side, unless your weapon arm has the
Extra-Flexible enhancement or you
possess the Double-Jointed advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B391
Even if you have one of those
advantages, you have an extra -2 to
parry an attack from behind, and can-
not block at all, unless your weapon or
shield arm has the Extra-Flexible
enhancement or you have the Double-
Jointed advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
As for EF vs DJ pricing, EF arms can't be Judo Locked, only Wrenched, but I believe that is introduced in Martial Arts. If you have 360 deg Vision, I could see an argument for allowing EF arms to attack to your rear facing ("reach and work with other limbs, regardless of body positioning, general layout...") without the -2 for a "clumsy angle". GM Call. DJ definitely doesn't do that though.
Immunity to one technique, even as important as Arm Lock, doesn't sound like something worth 30ish points. (Immunity to Arm Locks is [5] based on MA's categorisation thereof in Resistant.)
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Obviously if you are merely a cinematic contortionist (Double-Jointed) you can't reach things that something with tentacles or a trunk can because you still have arm bones. Game mechanically this is the +2 or +4 bonus for Abilities Enhancing Skills, or just allowing something that would be otherwise impossible. Extra-Flexibible arms therefore could probably claim +2 to Climbing and Escape, and probably +4 to Lockpicking, Surgery, and so on if you can fit your arm through the appropriate opening. It could also allow, for example, reaching between the bars of a cell door and around a corner, to pick a guard's pocket for the keys.

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Old 01-23-2018, 02:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

One other thing you can add, not from core rules but still RAW.
Technical Grappling with two flexible Arms lets you buy Constriction Attack for 5 points.

Personally I do think there should be more differences, Flexibility on Extra Arms is pretty pricey for its effect.
I would like a bonus to gripping, not lifting ST. Long Arms gives a bonus to Swing damage so there is kind of precedent.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Man, I wish they would put those kind of rules in the advantage too... way to hard to track through everything. But thanks for the cites.

Well, EF looks to be about as bad a deal, in that light, as Long. Extra Arm has a lot wrong with it, at least as far as enhancements (and limitations, Weak makes my teeth hurt) go.
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:06 AM   #9
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

I'm still not convinced why Extra Flexible Arms has to scale with number of arms anyways. Ambidextrous and Double-Jointed don't (and shouldn't).
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: Double-Jointed (Flexibility 2) vs. Extra-Flexible Arms (all of them)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I'm still not convinced why Extra Flexible Arms has to scale with number of arms anyways. Ambidextrous and Double-Jointed don't (and shouldn't).
I agree, several of the enhancements just don't do much more, if anything for multiple arms.
The main bonus of extra arms is the bonus to grappling, with a secondary feature being able to carry more things.
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