[Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

[Donny Brook]

To me what has distinguished Shadowing from being a mere portmanteau of Observation and Acting is a tactical element of how-not-to-lose the target.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

To me what has distinguished Shadowing from being a mere portmanteau of Observation and Acting is a tactical element of how-not-to-lose the target.

This is how I treat it.
Observation is the skill of looking without appearing to be looking. It does not include stealth or camouflage.
Shadowing is following someone without being obvious about it, it does not prevent you from being seen, though if your not seen it helps significantly. Also your move is not as restricted as with Stealth.
Stealth is the skill of moving slowly in a manner so as to avoid being seen or heard.

[namada]

Originally Posted by Refplace

This is how I treat it.
Observation is the skill of looking without appearing to be looking. It does not include stealth or camouflage.
Shadowing is following someone without being obvious about it, it does not prevent you from being seen, though if your not seen it helps significantly. Also your move is not as restricted as with Stealth.
Stealth is the skill of moving slowly in a manner so as to avoid being seen or heard.

Me too. Observation is just the Spy/Police Stakeout Skill, essentially.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

But if the difference between Observation's not being seen and Shadowing's not being seen is whether you're moving or not, that seems like an odd distinction between the skills.

Which is why I removed Shadowing in my house games...

Originally Posted by namada

Me too. Observation is just the Spy/Police Stakeout Skill, essentially.

It isn't. I literally listed out some of the uses of Observation from Basic, it is far more than the "stakeout" skill. In some cases it's actually treated as trained passive Perception, in others it's trained active Perception.

[namada]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It isn't. I literally listed out some of the uses of Observation from Basic, it is far more than the "stakeout" skill. In some cases it's actually treated as trained passive Perception, in others it's trained active Perception.

Except that it is, as per the full skill description, not as per other skill descriptions and the listed vs rolls. I think the examples you listed out, and called on Stealth being the dropped ball, are actually the dropped balls and Stealth is the correct one. If you want to train your active/passive perception - raise Perception.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by namada

Except that it is, as per the full skill description, not as per other skill descriptions and the listed vs rolls.

Sure, let's break down that skill description and not stop in the first sentence, shall we?

"This is the talent of observing dangerous or “interesting” situations without letting others know that you are watching."

In DFRPG the last bit "without letting others know that you are watching" is removed and replaced with "from afar". You can ignore this, but it's telling that the GURPS Line Editor made this change. It brings Observation cleanly in line with the five other uses in Basic.

And as I asked Fred earlier: What is the difference between observing without being noticed and when you don't care if you're noticed? Why is one trainable and the other not (trainable referring to Skill, not Attribute)?

"Use this skill to monitor a location, a group of people, or your immediate surroundings for concealed or tactically significant details."

Okay nothing here goes either way.

"This is not the same as gathering clues or making a hands-on search (use Forensics and Search, respectively) – you always use Observation from a distance."

Okay, this specifically calls out two other skills that are used in specific places Observation is not, clue finding with Forensics and hands-on with Searches. Observation is clarified as being a distance use.

The next paragraph is just saying you can use the skill as a straight roll to discover things that are not specifically hidden. It also calls out a another skill that is used to interpret what you have found.

The third paragraph get's interesting, it specifically contradicts Stealth later...

"To spot deliberately hidden details – e.g., someone trying to sneak up on you, an armed man hiding in the crowd, or a concealed machine-gun nest – you must win a Quick Contest of Observation skill vs. the Stealth, Shadowing, or Camouflage skill (as appropriate) of the other party."

So... under Stealth if you're sneaking your victim has to use raw Perception, but here you can use Observation when being snuck up upon. There are reasons I said "I think Stealth dropped the ball". Primarily because there was no Observation in 3e, but there was Stealth which was opposed by raw Perception... so I'm saying that Stealth in 4e Basic was copypasta which didn't get properly edited to reflect the new skill that was added.

Also this paragraph is clearly missing "Traps", otherwise there is no way to find those hidden cameras. ;)

The final paragraph reinforces the first sentence and is probably why everyone is hung up on it being "the stake-out" skill, as it mentions "getting spotted while watching" on critical failures. Again, this doesn't matter if A) no one is there to spot you or B) you don't care who sees you peeping.


Or do you wish to argue that the skill automatically critically fails if you make your Observation obvious?

I think the examples you listed out, and called on Stealth being the dropped ball, are actually the dropped balls and Stealth is the correct one.

So five examples are "dropping the ball" and one example is on point? That's a pretty weak argument. It's rare that authors would make a mistake five times in row only to finally get it right on the sixth ruling...

If you want to train your active/passive perception - raise Perception.

Raising Perception can be either training or innate talent or buying better sensors... whereas raising Observation is training a Skill. In some campaigns the former is verboten while the later is generally always allowed.

[vicky_molokh]

Perhaps a useful quote and thread:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Observation can work that way -- it's just that it can do other things, too. Watching an area or a group for a time to determine its purpose and secrets includes noticing which bits are camouflaged, who's hiding in the shadows, etc. Normally, such skills as Camouflage, Stealth, and Shadowing go up against straight Perception because, usually, those skills are applied tactically and the "victim" (so to speak) isn't actively scanning the area for an extended period. However, a soldier, guard, spy, or detective doing nothing but watching the area has a better chance of noticing items and people that have been deliberately concealed. In effect, if his Observation skill is greater than his Per, he gets a bonus for applying trained technique.

Thus, there are effectively two distinct uses of Observation:

1. Roll against the higher of Observation or Perception in any Contest against a stealth or concealment skill such as Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth, and to notice Filch, Pickpocket, or Sleight of Hand attempts. This is the "tactical" use of Observation.

2. Roll against Observation (default: Per-5) to gather intelligence for later analysis with Intelligence Analysis, typically to avoid penalties for unprepared breaking and entering, military action with Strategy or Tactics, etc. This is the "strategic" use of Observation.

In essence, the uses in the first category are a "perk" for being expert at the second category.

Notice the 'such as' in the first point. Kromm makes a point of distinguishing between 'such as' vs. 'that is' (or 'e.g.' vs. 'i.e.'). Between that and general logic, I don't see Observation's ability to overcome concealment being limited to intentional concealment.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Pe, I don't see Observation's ability to overcome concealment being limited to intentional concealment.

Negative modifiers due to distance or even speed are not usually considered as a form of "concealment" and I wouldn't expect Observation to train you to overcome those.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Negative modifiers due to distance or even speed are not usually considered as a form of "concealment" and I wouldn't expect Observation to train you to overcome those.

Insofar as it boosts your skill above your base Perception, it very much does, per the rules.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Insofar as it boosts your skill above your base Perception, it very much does, per the rules.

The lack of any form of specialization in what it does would simply make Observation a universal replacement for Perception. That would make no sense pointswise. I beleive Observation has to be specialized in its' valid targets to at least some degree.