Hero System ability design

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In the course of thinking about this, I had a further look at Transform. It has you roll dice as for Killing Attack, counting the roll against BODY; but if you get up to twice the normal full BODY, instead of the target dying, they are changed into something else. And I sort of see the logic of that. But on the other hand, killing someone is essentially permanent; but Transform is written so that they will return to their normal form, either by "healing" the lost BODY, or by some special event such as a kiss from a princess or a session of abreactive hypnotherapy or something. Those don't seem to be on a par.

Transform goes against power defense so it's a lot more effective against superhero and supervillain class opponents. Of course, that's probably not the major intended use case of this power.

I would just give in to the system and make it a stun only energy attack with a note that a target 'knocked unconscious' by this power is actually paralyzed, with a small limitation that says the power cannot reduce the target below zero (thus, if you take someone down and remove the current, they take a recovery on their next turn and are at positive stun again).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Transform goes against power defense so it's a lot more effective against superhero and supervillain class opponents. Of course, that's probably not the major intended use case of this power.

I would just give in to the system and make it a stun only energy attack with a note that a target 'knocked unconscious' by this power is actually paralyzed, with a small limitation that says the power cannot reduce the target below zero (thus, if you take someone down and remove the current, they take a recovery on their next turn and are at positive stun again).

I will grant that that could be done. But I'm not sure what you see as problematic about basing it on Flash.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd recommend Entangle with various Modifiers, myself.

Champions Powers has a number of paralysis type powers, all built with Entangle with Takes No Damage From Attacks, which I've found using a text search on the string "paraly". Player's choice as to what Characteristic to use to break it; CON is just as valid a choice as STR, and EGO could be an outside possibility if the player feels their target's willpower might help them get out of it.

Either or both of two Limitations might help as well: Costs END To Maintain, and (assuming it's already No Range) Entangle Ends Upon Contact Loss. Hopefully these are self explanatory; the latter is a freeform use of Limited Power.

A no-range Telekinesis might work, as might additional STR with an "Only For Grabs" Limitation. In either case, the Grab maneuver would be used in order to hold the target in place, and both require the attacker to maintain contact with the target as well as, if applicable, continue to spend END.

(The original Mental Paralysis was a separate power in one of the first-gen/3rd edition era Champions supplements. It gave the paralysis a DEF and BODY score and was removed using the target's EGO or any mental powers they had; other characters could use their own mental powers against it as well. It more or less used the Entangle mechanics to give a very Entangle-like result, enough that fourth edition and beyond made mental paralysis in particular and paralysis effects in general an Entangle build.)

Disclosure: I've been playing Champions since 1985, and am a "Rules Maven" on the Hero Games forums. I'm empowered to give official answers to rules questions, which I almost always do with references to page numbers or (rarely) previous rules questions. I'm happy to do that in the context of this thread, although I don't hit the SJGames forums as often as Hero's. I think the SJGames forum software lets me set the thread to "watched" so that I'll get emailed notifications of replies, which I'll do if I can.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I will grant that that could be done. But I'm not sure what you see as problematic about basing it on Flash.

I see nothing at all problematic about basing it on Flash. As I mentioned above, that's how Mental Paralysis came about, and in fact the original rationale for the Transform power was that if you can kill a character, the same amount of power may as well be enough to transform them into something else.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

I'd recommend Entangle with various Modifiers, myself.

Champions Powers has a number of paralysis type powers, all built with Entangle with Takes No Damage From Attacks, which I've found using a text search on the string "paraly". Player's choice as to what Characteristic to use to break it; CON is just as valid a choice as STR, and EGO could be an outside possibility if the player feels their target's willpower might help them get out of it.

Either or both of two Limitations might help as well: Costs END To Maintain, and (assuming it's already No Range) Entangle Ends Upon Contact Loss. Hopefully these are self explanatory; the latter is a freeform use of Limited Power.

A no-range Telekinesis might work, as might additional STR with an "Only For Grabs" Limitation. In either case, the Grab maneuver would be used in order to hold the target in place, and both require the attacker to maintain contact with the target as well as, if applicable, continue to spend END.

(The original Mental Paralysis was a separate power in one of the first-gen/3rd edition Champions era supplements. It gave the paralysis a DEF and BODY score and was removed using the target's EGO or any mental powers they had; other characters could use their own mental powers against it as well. It more or less used the Entangle mechanics to give a very Entangle-like result, enough that fourth edition and beyond made mental paralysis in particular and paralysis effects on general an Entangle build.)

Disclosure: I've been playing Champions since 1985, and am a "Rules Maven" on the Hero Games forums. I'm empowered to give official answers to rules questions, which I almost always do with references to page numbers or (rarely) previous rules questions. I'm happy to do that in the context of this thread, although I don't hit the SJGames forums as often as Hero's. I think the SJGames forum software lets me set the thread to "watched" so that I'll get emailed notifications of replies, which I'll do if I can.

I should like to see a detailed analysis of what each of the various advantages and limitations is worth. This is the first Hero System game I've run since the twentieth century; I don't have an intuitive sense for this.

But I see that if Entangle has Takes No Damage from Attacks, and can't be attacked from outside, it still CAN be attacked by targeting it specifically at -3 OCV. If this means that you can break someone out of electrically induced muscle spasms by hitting the spasms hard enough, that really makes no sense to me. If you have to attack with CON, the same way the paralyzed person does, I'm not sure how you can use your CON to free someone else from paralysis/muscle spasms.

It really feels as if this way of turning Entangle into paralysis is overcomplicated, to the point of Rube Goldberg. That's why I've been looking for another way to approach it.

I thought of "Paralysis works like Flash" because we have the precedent of "Transform works like Killing Attack," so that approach seems not to offend against the spirit of Champions. I'm not sure what the problem with it is.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I should like to see a detailed analysis of what each of the various advantages and limitations is worth. This is the first Hero System game I've run since the twentieth century; I don't have an intuitive sense for this.

Costs END To Maintain is -1/2; there's an additional Costs Half END To Maintain for -1/4. Champions Powers uses Lockout at -1/2 to represent the Must Maintain Contact Limitation; I wouldn't use Lockout as written, but -1/2 is what I'd use as an appropriate value.

But I see that if Entangle has Takes No Damage from Attacks, and can't be attacked from outside, it still CAN be attacked by targeting it specifically at -3 OCV. If this means that you can break someone out of electrically induced muscle spasms by hitting the spasms hard enough, that really makes no sense to me. If you have to attack with CON, the same way the paralyzed person does, I'm not sure how you can use your CON to free someone else from paralysis/muscle spasms.

This is in part a "game balance" issue. Every attack needs a defense or some way to break it, as one of the semi-unwritten axioms of Hero. I'd try to figure out a way to include it in the fiction; maybe it depends on an external attacker knocking the paralyzed target away from the bioelectric character? Also, as GM you're free to ignore that part if you wish, or bump the cost of the Advantage.

It really feels as if this way of turning Entangle into paralysis is overcomplicated, to the point of Rube Goldberg. That's why I've been looking for another way to approach it.

I thought of "Paralysis works like Flash" because we have the precedent of "Transform works like Killing Attack," so that approach seems not to offend against the spirit of Champions. I'm not sure what the problem with it is.

If I were rewriting the system, I'd replace Entangle with a new base power: Immobilize. All it would do would be that, with various tweaks to represent physical entangles or paralysis through various means. I haven't designed that power, though.

What I understood was that you weren't intending to use the literal Flash Power, but a new base power using Flash as the mechanical and point cost basis. That's well within the spirit of Hero, and while it was more prevalent in earlier times, each of the latter editions' core rulebooks include the same advice on changing the system as previous editions did: try to stick to 1d6 per 5 points; every attack should have a defense which should be cheaper; try to compare a new power to an existing power as far as point costs and scope are concerned. As far as I can tell, you've done all that -- and even if you hadn't, it's your game, so... I have no problem at all with it. As you and I have both mentioned, there is Transform as precedent. And there aren't any Game Police waiting in the wings to stop you.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I will grant that that could be done. But I'm not sure what you see as problematic about basing it on Flash.

Flash is only resisted by flash defense, and is a significantly less impairing effect than paralysis. What defense are people supposed to even use against this? The reality is, this is an attack that you would expect to be ineffective against exactly the same class of targets as would be resistant to energy damage, so treating it as damage really is the most accurate, and if you want to capture people for interrogation, 3 segments of paralysis isn't very useful anyway.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Flash is only resisted by flash defense, and is a significantly less impairing effect than paralysis. What defense are people supposed to even use against this? The reality is, this is an attack that you would expect to be ineffective against exactly the same class of targets as would be resistant to energy damage, so treating it as damage really is the most accurate, and if you want to capture people for interrogation, 3 segments of paralysis isn't very useful anyway.

My personal recommendation would be Power Defense for the fully worked base power, targeted using OCV vs. DCV, and using the existing HERO System modifiers for changing the Combat Value (Alternate Combat Value) and defenses (Attack Versus Alternate Defense) used. I can easily see OMCV vs. DMCV and going against Mental Defense, or switching from Power Defense to Energy Defense for electrical muscle lock. But I'd guess @whswhs probably isn't interested in fileting the power that finely; 1d6 per 5 points, goes vs. Energy Defense, is good enough for a one-off.

Edit to add: assuming 5 points per d6 vs. Power Defense, apply the Modifiers to change it to Energy Defense would bring it to 2.5 points per d6. GM's choice whether that's 2 per d6 or 3 per d6, or even 2.5; nothing can have a final cost of fractions of a point, but there are and always have been things that cost 1 per 2 points or less. 5 points per 2d6 is perfectly within spec.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Costs END To Maintain is -1/2; there's an additional Costs Half END To Maintain for -1/4. Champions Powers uses Lockout at -1/2 to represent the Must Maintain Contact Limitation; I wouldn't use Lockout as written, but -1/2 is what I'd use as an appropriate value.

It seems as if a complete build would be Entangle 2d6: Alternate Combat Value, MOCV instead of OCV, +0: Alternate Combat Value, against MDCV instead of DCV, +1/4: Takes No Damage from Attacks, +1/2: Based on CON, -1: Costs END to Maintain, -1/2: Must Maintain Contact, -1/2: No Range, -1/2. That seems to come out to 10 points, or call it 5 points per 1d6.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Flash is only resisted by flash defense, and is a significantly less impairing effect than paralysis. What defense are people supposed to even use against this? The reality is, this is an attack that you would expect to be ineffective against exactly the same class of targets as would be resistant to energy damage, so treating it as damage really is the most accurate, and if you want to capture people for interrogation, 3 segments of paralysis isn't very useful anyway.

I think that's somewhat debatable. Flash reduces your CV by, typically, one-half, where Paralysis reduces it to 0; but on the other hand, Flash shuts down your perception, but Paralysis doesn't shut it down at all. That seems like a rough tradeoff.

And, well, you could buy Paralysis Defense just like Flash Defense, I think.

Energy Defense is basically resistance to burning. But electrically induced muscle spasm doesn't necessarily inflict burns on the surface (or interior) of the body; a much lower current level can immobilize someone.

I don't know that the player will want this. But it seems like something that might be good to have worked out.