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Old 12-08-2020, 10:55 AM   #31
RedMattis
 
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

I don't think using the RTS stats is meaningful. A handful of marines can shoot down a Battlecruiser despite the crusiers being over a kilometer in length.
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Old 12-08-2020, 11:11 AM   #32
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

DR (Ablative (Cutting Only)) would model armor that resists most attacks but gets worn down by the zerg rush.

Another build I've considered is layered DR of:
DR (All or Nothing) Enough to resist small arms and the like.
DR (Ablative or Semi-Ablative)

I like the second one since it works for a lot of situations where you want armor to be worn down reasonably quickly, but not by attacks that are below a certain threshold.
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Old 12-08-2020, 11:35 AM   #33
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
I don't think using the RTS stats is meaningful. A handful of marines can shoot down a Battlecruiser despite the crusiers being over a kilometer in length.
I generally assume that on the RTS maps (as opposed to the no-recruitment mission maps) a single counter of marines is actually a platoon or so.
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Old 12-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
DR (Ablative (Cutting Only)) would model armor that resists most attacks but gets worn down by the zerg rush.

Another build I've considered is layered DR of:
DR (All or Nothing) Enough to resist small arms and the like.
DR (Ablative or Semi-Ablative)

I like the second one since it works for a lot of situations where you want armor to be worn down reasonably quickly, but not by attacks that are below a certain threshold.
I've long felt that a decent idea for a certain type of ablative armor would be to have it with a given DR that roughly follows the normal semi-ablative scheme (optionally a bit faster, say -1 DR per 5 damage), but instead of a penetration damaging the character, it instead degrades the armor on a 1-for-1 basis. So, a character with DR 100 in this scheme, if struck by a 150 damage attack, would have the first 100 reduce DR to 90, and the remaining 50 would reduce DR to 40 (rather than pulping the character). Such a modifier is arguably worth a net -10%* if it's part of the character or a Gadget (if it's just gear, like the armor of most Marines, it doesn't need such stats). This basically means the character won't be harmed at all until the armor - or at least that part of it - is completely destroyed (I should note I initially came up with this while musing on how Shardplate from The Stormlight Archives might function, and also considered a one-shot adventure involving space marines in armor that functions similarly for some players more familiar with "buckets of HP" characters/enemies). This can also work well for superscience shields that won't let anything through until they've been fully depleted.

*Something that comes close in function would be a layer of Semi-ablative DR and an equal layer of Ablative DR. For DR 100, the first layer (with Semi-ablative -20%) would cost [400], while the second (with Ablative -80%) would cost [100], for a total of [500] - essentially a net +0% modifier on the initial DR 100. That would outperform the above, however, as the Semi-ablative layer wouldn't lose DR when the Ablative one does, so I felt roughly halving the cost of the Ablative layer would be appropriate for linking its DR to the Semi-ablative layer's. That changes the cost to [450], or a net -10%.

EDIT:
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I generally assume that on the RTS maps (as opposed to the no-recruitment mission maps) a single counter of marines is actually a platoon or so.
They also likely have weapons beyond their rifles, which may be better fits against targets they logically shouldn't be able to harm - the intro to the Brood War expansion shows a Marine blowing up some Zerglings with rocket propelled explosives of some flavor, although given he only takes out one with each, (and doesn't harm the nearby Marine at all) they likely aren't very powerful. That cinematic - and I think pretty much all of the relevant cinematics from SC1 - also shows a Marine's rifle being unable to penetrate the Zergling's armor, of course.
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Old 12-08-2020, 12:02 PM   #35
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I've long felt that a decent idea for a certain type of ablative armor would be to have it with a given DR that roughly follows the normal semi-ablative scheme (optionally a bit faster, say -1 DR per 5 damage), but instead of a penetration damaging the character, it instead degrades the armor on a 1-for-1 basis. So, a character with DR 100 in this scheme, if struck by a 150 damage attack, would have the first 100 reduce DR to 90, and the remaining 50 would reduce DR to 40 (rather than pulping the character). Such a modifier is arguably worth a net -10%* if it's part of the character or a Gadget (if it's just gear, like the armor of most Marines, it doesn't need such stats). This basically means the character won't be harmed at all until the armor - or at least that part of it - is completely destroyed (I should note I initially came up with this while musing on how Shardplate from The Stormlight Archives might function, and also considered a one-shot adventure involving space marines in armor that functions similarly for some players more familiar with "buckets of HP" characters/enemies). This can also work well for superscience shields that won't let anything through until they've been fully depleted.

*Something that comes close in function would be a layer of Semi-ablative DR and an equal layer of Ablative DR. For DR 100, the first layer (with Semi-ablative -20%) would cost [400], while the second (with Ablative -80%) would cost [100], for a total of [500] - essentially a net +0% modifier on the initial DR 100. That would outperform the above, however, as the Semi-ablative layer wouldn't lose DR when the Ablative one does, so I felt roughly halving the cost of the Ablative layer would be appropriate for linking its DR to the Semi-ablative layer's. That changes the cost to [450], or a net -10%.
Interesting concept! If I may, I'd like to call this "Double-Pass Ablative" or DP-Ablative.

In my personal system off allowing any arbitrary value of Ablative, where Ablative is Ablative(1) and Semi-Ablative is Ablative(10) I'd have DP-Ablative be Ablative(X/Y) so your example would be Ablative(10/1). A Fair value for the limitation would, in my opinion, be the full -% of the first pass and half the value of the second pass.
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Old 12-08-2020, 12:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Interesting concept! If I may, I'd like to call this "Double-Pass Ablative" or DP-Ablative.
Feel free to steal and name it however you'd like. As you note, I feel a fair way to price it is the two-layer approach, with the second layer at half price. This may interact poorly with non-standard ablation rates, however. I was going to suggest building the second layer as always ablating 1:1, with the option to have it with more DR than the first, so long as the loss is proportional. I don't know what pricing scheme you use, but let's say Ablative(5) is -40% and Ablative(3) is -50% (Ablative(1) is still -80%). Simply going with halving the second layer would make DPA(5/3) be -15%, and a character with DR 20 would pay [85] to be able to soak up to a 48 damage attack. Instead requiring the character to build the first layer as DR 20(Ablative(5) -40%) [60] and the second as DR 60(Ablative(1) -80%) [60], halved to [30] for being linked to the first layer for an end cost of [90], works out to a very similar cost, so I suspect just halving the second layer is probably fine.
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Old 12-13-2020, 05:37 PM   #37
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
I don't think using the RTS stats is meaningful. A handful of marines can shoot down a Battlecruiser despite the crusiers being over a kilometer in length.
To be fair, this was pretty much inherited from Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness where the Elven Archer (3-9 damage) could eventually (150 hp) destroy a battleship.

Battleships had 15 armor which means it would reduce damage to the minimum of 1, so it would take 150 shots, but 150 arrows destroying a battleship is still pretty extreme.

Elven Archers had equal damage as Troll Axethrowers, though in GURPS terms I'm pretty sure cutting damage would be better at damaging wood than impaling damage, due to the "Unliving" status of wood and all that.

That kind of complexity didn't make it into WC3 either ... not sure about WOW as I haven't played it yet... dunno if they distinquish impaling arrows vs. cutting axes vs "wooden foes" types.

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
DR (Ablative (Cutting Only)) would model armor that resists most attacks but gets worn down by the zerg rush.
Do you mean to stack them (DR always ablates from all damage hitting it, and only subtracts from cutting damage) ?

Or to "either or" them (DR subtracts from all damage, but only ablates from cutting damage) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Another build I've considered is layered DR of:
DR (All or Nothing) Enough to resist small arms and the like.
Like with DR 1, 1 basic damage has 0 penetrating damage, 2 basic damage has 2 penetrating damage?

You could stack or either-or this with ablative too:
1) stacked: small damage is lessened and ablates, big damage is not lessened, but still ablates
2) either: small damage is lessened and does not ablate, big damage is lessened but ablates
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Old 12-13-2020, 06:53 PM   #38
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Do you mean to stack them (DR always ablates from all damage hitting it, and only subtracts from cutting damage) ?

Or to "either or" them (DR subtracts from all damage, but only ablates from cutting damage) ?
The DR behaves normally, but only ablates from cutting damage.

Quote:
Like with DR 1, 1 basic damage has 0 penetrating damage, 2 basic damage has 2 penetrating damage?

You could stack or either-or this with ablative too:
1) stacked: small damage is lessened and ablates, big damage is not lessened, but still ablates
2) either: small damage is lessened and does not ablate, big damage is lessened but ablates
Yes, All-Or-Nothing means it either completely stops the attack or fails completely. Stacking it on ablative would be quite weird, I'm not sure what behavior that would be representative of.
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Old 12-13-2020, 09:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

The other fairly simple way to emulate Starcraft armor is to treat it as fairly high DR flexible armor, and you mostly just kill things by bleeding through damage.
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Old 12-14-2020, 04:16 PM   #40
Plane
 
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Default Re: closest Space/Ultratech equiv to the giant power armors used by Marines in Starcr

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
The DR behaves normally, but only ablates from cutting damage.
"Ablates or Else" is definitely either/or...

On more thought though I think the other condition might be "Bane:Cutting" rather than "Limited:Cutting".

Basically to avoid Cutting ignoreing the DR (which Bane causes) you switch to ablate.

If it was either/or Ablative/Limited:Cutting then I think it would be that cutting alone stops it without ablating while all other attacks were stopped w/ Ablate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Stacking it on ablative would be quite weird, I'm not sure what behavior that would be representative of.
basically how Corrosion Attack w/ Ignores DR might work: something would not have DR subtracted from it, but still reduce DR on its way in.

Or the opposite of how Corrosion Attack w/ No Wounding works (no damage gets through, but lowers DR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The other fairly simple way to emulate Starcraft armor is to treat it as fairly high DR flexible armor, and you mostly just kill things by bleeding through damage.
Would work if it was physical attacks but there's energy stuff like w/ Firebats flamethrowers which don't suffer Blunt Trauma.
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