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Old 03-23-2023, 12:19 PM   #11
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Do you mean which difficulty offset it uses?
Yes. I would note that the fact that the pricing is uniform other than the offset is an excellent argument for just deleting it completely and achieving the same effect with task difficulty modifiers (for example, give weapons a bonus or penalty to hit as part of the weapon stat, instead of as a part of the skill group).
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
Some people just don't like doing math. It's difficult and/or has very unpleasant associations for some people. For others, it's not necessarily difficult; it's just tedious, and that has an outsized negative impact on their enjoyment of what's supposed to be a fun leisure activity.

And those calculating devices don't help as much as you'd think because that shifts you from the drudgery of doing lots of simple arithmetic to the drudgery of transcribing lots of arbitrary numbers to your calculating device. There's always going to be a non-trivial audience which wants to get on with playing the game and sees either or both of those as a dull bit of homework they have to do before they ever get to the table. For some people, front-loading doesn't work.
A smart integrated system would perform the data entry automatically as you populated your inventory, but good luck getting one.

(Populating the inventory at all is homework for some but at that point there's no amount of labor savings that would make them interested I think.)
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Yes. I would note that the fact that the pricing is uniform other than the offset is an excellent argument for just deleting it completely and achieving the same effect with task difficulty modifiers (for example, give weapons a bonus or penalty to hit as part of the weapon stat, instead of as a part of the skill group).
Because having a modifier you add to literally every skill use is better than a modifier you add when creating your character sheet?
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Because having a modifier you add to literally every skill use is better than a modifier you add when creating your character sheet?
How many skill rolls don't already come with modifiers? Just change the pre-existing modifiers to work without skill difficulties.
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Three simple steps (look at ST on your sheet, look up corresponding BL on a table, multiply by a factor from a list) is half again as much work as two simple steps (look at ST on your sheet, multiply by a factor from a list). That's not necessarily insignificant - of course, that's why BL is listed separately on your character sheet... and in fact why your encumbrance levels are already listed there, so you don't have to recalculate all the time.
In fact, both editions had a table for the whole thing, so it's actually "Look up your ST on the table, note the stuff down" in both cases.

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A lot of people hate even simple math. Heck, I used to hate math, and early on it was consistently one of my worst subjects, in no small part because of those cursed multiplication tables (although from observing my peers, I think it's algebra that winds up turning most people strongly against math, when that was ironically when I started liking and doing well at it). I'm not sure if it's an issue with the way it's taught, if it's something that just never "clicks" for certain people (much like artistry for myself), or something else. And, as the forums tend to self-select for gearheads, I suspect our little niche group isn't going to figure that out.
I hated the multiplication table as a child. Rote learning like that was (and is) something I really hate. I'd prefer to recalculate the answer every time, rather than just learn the thing off (the same went for spelling, but you can't derive spellings like that). I did learn it in the end, but years after my peers - on the other hand, I still remember it, and out to at least 12x12 like my parents (school only taught us to 10x10), because I still use this and they don't.

But I agree with you on algebra, and that's partly because education systems tend to teach it right when youths' brains are just developing the ability to manage abstracts to that level, and that means for about half the kids it's going to be witchcraft because their brains just can't handle the concept and at best they just learn it off as a series of steps to take to go from one string of gibberish to another, and in the process they learn to hate maths and maths teachers. Delay the lessons a year or two and a whole lot more kids wouldn't learn to hate it before they understand it. It clicked with me immediately, so I was okay with maths until calculus, which was badly presented and I ever really grasped past basic integration and differentiation (which I can still do - because it's useful when gearheading).

I suspect part of the modern dislike for doing even simple maths is also that from not long after people my age (early 50s) went through school pocket calculators because so ubiquitous that education systems started assuming their presence and didn't make kids do basic arithmetic over and over until they could do it easily. That said, it's not just younger folks - my oldest player, around 60 years old (and thus old enough to have been initially taught in the Imperial system and then in metric), really hates non-decimal currency and non-metric measure, because they use increments other than tens.
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Old 03-23-2023, 01:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

The GURPS Character Sheet program, and GURPS Game Aid for Foundry VTT automate a lot of the math for skills, encumbrance, and other figures used in GURPS. Unfortunately, using them while gaming requires having a laptop or desktop computer on hand, since neither works on a tablet or phone.
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
There's always going to be a non-trivial audience which wants to get on with playing the game and sees either or both of those as a dull bit of homework they have to do before they ever get to the table. For some people, front-loading doesn't work.
It's odd because almost everyone appreciates that part of ttrpg is managing resources. Many character tropes and archetypes are defined by their access to limited resources, and these often require simple math.
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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It's odd because almost everyone appreciates that part of ttrpg is managing resources.
I would dispute 'almost everyone'. In fact, I doubt it's even a majority; my experience with games that have resource management systems is that players go out of their way to make sure that the resource management turns into a nonfactor.
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

I don't mind the math in theory, but the reality is that I always create characters on my computer and have been doing so since the early '90s when I build a custom database for my GURPS 3e campaigns. I'm so used to GCS now that I forget how tedious it can be to use paper sheets.

When I run my DFRPG camps in the summer for middle-schoolers, I can't count on them having any tech, so we do everything the old-fashioned way. It's ok (kinda sorta) if you do everything in order, step-by-step, but it's a serious hassle if you decide to change an attribute after writing in all your skills. The kids definitely go glassy-eyed over calculating their speed and defenses. For most of them, I just give them "typical case" numbers based on their character archetype and call it a day. (I.e., knights get high DR, low MV, low Dodge, etc.; swashies get high MV and Dodge, low DR, and so on.)
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Old 03-23-2023, 02:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I would dispute 'almost everyone'. In fact, I doubt it's even a majority; my experience with games that have resource management systems is that players go out of their way to make sure that the resource management turns into a nonfactor.
Most games require you to count expendable resources, whether it's throwing stars, arrows, spells, or X feet of rope.
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