Katana in defensive grip

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

Fair enough as a GM call, but that’s clearly not RAW. The rules say any melee weapon can be held in a defensive grip. You seem to only want to allow it on weapons that are normally used two-handed.

Otherwise, how do you account for the ability to use a defensive grip on a broadsword or cavalry saber using broadsword skill, but not on a bastard sword?

Those are also blades that I don't allow Defensive Grip on. So I have no problem.

It's not just for normally two-handed weapons though. Several posts ago I said hafted weapons only need enough available haft.

If you allow Defensive Grip on absolutely everything you end wondering how that works with fist-loads like a yawara.

[Verjigorm]

This is really just a legacy of the sword skills being excessively narrow. Though it's also a function of combat skills being a butt too specialized in general: much of the fundamentals for using a weapon are the same body core body mechanics. Martial Arts addresses this with a variety of optional rules and perks.

But the weirdness where an expert swordsman suddenly becomes a novice makes little sense.

At my table, I would only apply the penalties for two handed use, not require the use of two handed sword skills. If I didn't just group all swords into a single "sword" skill. Or have a single Fight! Skill for all melee combat.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

...

But the weirdness where an expert swordsman suddenly becomes a novice makes little sense.
...

It makes little sense until you actually see it happen.

I have been practicing martial arts for most my life, spending the last decade or so on armed combat styles.

I have learned longsword, messer, sword and buckler, saber, and rapier. I can attest that going from one-handed to two-handed, and vis versa, can turn an expert into a novice until they learn a few techniques and get comfortable.

I started in Kendo and transitioned into longsword. After a few years I picked up messer and oh boy was it different. As different as it was from saber too.

The combat skills are not "fighting styles" despite their names (looking at you "karate" skill), but are meant to simulate different methods of using a weapon, which sounds the same!

The easiest example are the pole arm skills.

Does it have a striking head and is unbalanced? -> polearm skill
Does it have a striking head and is balanced? -> spear skill
Does it not have a striking head and is balanced? -> staff skill

Which leads to the missing:
Does it not have a striking head and is unbalanced? -> depends

the point is this:

If the weapon is meant for one-handed use, the handle can only accommodate one hand, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip.

If the weapon is meant for two-handed use, the handle can accommodate two hands, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip.

If the weapon is meant for one- or two-handed use, the handle can accommodate more than one hand, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip.

[Ulzgoroth]

The problem with the rule as we have it is that it makes a condition that looks useful, and then says you can't have it, with both steps of that not making sense.

First, using your 1/2 hand weapon in the one-handed style of defensive grip. This shouldn't be appealing - the defensive grip for one-handed-only weapons as described seems to be just an inferior form of normal two-handed wielding. But it has bonuses that two-handed wielding doesn't get and can't get. Why? Also, you get to do it using a different skill, avoiding a significant default penalty.

And then once that's been made into something you might want to do, you're told you can't do it for no discernible reason. Hilt's too long, no hilt-only-defensive grip for you.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The problem with the rule as we have it is that it makes a condition that looks useful, and then says you can't have it, with both steps of that not making sense.

First, using your 1/2 hand weapon in the one-handed style of defensive grip. This shouldn't be appealing - the defensive grip for one-handed-only weapons as described seems to be just an inferior form of normal two-handed wielding. But it has bonuses that two-handed wielding doesn't get and can't get. Why? Also, you get to do it using a different skill, avoiding a significant default penalty.

And then once that's been made into something you might want to do, you're told you can't do it for no discernible reason. Hilt's too long, no hilt-only-defensive grip for you.

Two fighters, A and B

A has Broadsword skill 14
B has Two-handed sword skill 14



Broadsword weapon uses Broadsword skill, it does:
sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr
Parry +0

A Using defensive grip:
Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 8 (defaulted from broadsword skill 14 and -2 to attack rolls)
sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
Parry +1 from front
extra -1 to parry attacks from the side

B Using defensive grip:
Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 12 (-2 to attack rolls)
sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
Parry +1 from front
extra -1 to parry attacks from the side



Bastard Sword uses Broadsword skill OR two-handed sword skill, it does:
One-handed:
sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr
Parry +0U
Two-handed:
sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
parry +0

A Using defensive grip:
Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 10 (defaulted from broadsword skill 14)
sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
Parry +1 from front
-1 to odds of breakage
-2 to hit with a Wild Swing
-2 sw damage or -1 sw damage per die, whichever is worse
extra -1 to parry attacks from the side

B Using defensive grip:
Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 14
sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
Parry +1 from front
-1 to odds of breakage
-2 to hit with a Wild Swing
-2 sw damage or -1 sw damage per die, whichever is worse
extra -1 to parry attacks from the side



Look at it this way:
Ignoring defensive grip, if you hold a sword in one hand, you use broadsword skill. If you hold it in two hands, you use two-handed sword skill.

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't believe the actual rule says that using defensive grip on a one-handed weapon requires using a whole different skill...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Two fighters, A and B

A has Broadsword skill 14
B has Two-handed sword skill 14

This all matches my understanding. Note that A has pretty much no reason to ever use Defensive Grip; the main exception is to get a touch more damage with the broadsword, which sounds weird for something called Defensive Grip (the Bastard Sword gets rid of its Parry U on the swing, but I'd suggest Defensive Attack would be a better choice there, particularly considering Defensive Grip gives the same penalty to swing damage).

Why is that? Because the actual stats, assuming no Combat Reflexes (which gives a +1 to Parry in all cases, so is a wash), work out to:

Broadsword, one-handed
Attack 14
Damage sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr
Parry 10 to Front, Parry 8 to Side

Broadsword, Defensive Grip
Attack 8
Damage sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr
Parry 9 to Front (8+1), 7 to Side (8-1)

Bastard Sword, one-handed
Attack 14
Damage sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr
Parry 10U

Bastard Sword, Defensive Grip
Attack 10
Damage sw cut or thr+2 cr
Parry 9 to Front (8+1), 7 to Side (8-1)


If Defensive Grip lets you use Broadsword for those weapons (and the Broadsword stats and one-handed rules), however, then there is a purpose for Defensive Grip with a one-handed weapon - +1 damage, -2 attack, +1 defense from the front.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't believe the actual rule says that using defensive grip on a one-handed weapon requires using a whole different skill...

It does, twice:

For one-handed weapons:
"...Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes."

Then again after explaining the two different ways:

"Treat a weapon that can be used one- or two-handed – such as a bastard sword or a spear – as two-handed for this purpose."

Everyone that is arguing it doesn't is forgetting some important rules, namely the rules found under "Ready Maneuver" Specifically "Switching Weapon Skills" on page 104 in MA.

Other wise the perks Form Mastery, Grip Mastery, and Weapon Adaptation not make sense.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

It does, twice:

For one-handed weapons:
"...Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes."

Interpreting this to its literal, absurd conclusion, all one-handed weapons would be treated as two-handed weapons for the purposes of the defensive grip rules themselves. So the whole paragraph it's in would never apply.

To me, that's a strong argument to not interpret it that way, and also to not interpret:

Originally Posted by zoncxs

"Treat a weapon that can be used one- or two-handed – such as a bastard sword or a spear – as two-handed for this purpose."

as meaning you have to use a two-handed weapon skill to use defensive grip with a weapon that can be used with either a one- or two-handed weapon skill. I think "for this purpose" mostly likely means the purpose of determining the effects of the defensive grip and nothing more.

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Everyone that is arguing it doesn't is forgetting some important rules, namely the rules found under "Ready Maneuver" Specifically "Switching Weapon Skills" on page 104 in MA.

Other wise the perks Form Mastery, Grip Mastery, and Weapon Adaptation not make sense.

That section refers to changing the skill used with a weapon. My whole argument is that you shouldn't have to change the skill you are using. I think the simple approach is that broadsword skill includes the ability to use a defensive grip on any weapon that can be used with broadsword skill, whether it can also be used with two-handed sword skill or not. The rules for defensive grip already include having to take a ready maneuver to add the second hand if the weapon is being used one-handed, or to shift the grip if the weapon is being used two-handed, so nothing from the "Switching Weapon Skills" section is needed.

There are weapons that by the RAW can be used in defensive grip, but that have no corresponding 'two-handed' skill. There are weapons that you can hold in a defensive grip with broadsword skill, but have no stats for use with a 'two-handed' skill. This makes it seem most likely to me that the defensive grip does not require the use of a 'two-handed' skill. It is a special case where you use two hands with a skill that usually uses one hand.

[zoncxs]

Martial Arts Page 220, "One-Handed Two-Handers" This explains that when a fighter, who has enough strength, uses a two-handed weapon, that only has stats listed under two-handed weapon skill, what skill is required to use.

A Two-handed weapon like the great sword, which only has stats under the two-handed weapon list, has the stats:

Greatsword
sw+3 cut or thr+2 cr

And uses the two-handed weapon skill, because you are using two hands. But when used one-handed:

Greatsword
sw+2 cut or thr+1 cr

And uses the broadsword skill, because you are now using one hand.

The reverse is also true, going from using one hand to two hands changes the skill required.

The exception to this, as noted on page 220, is the spear skill. Weather you use one or two hands, you still use the spear skill. Polearm is even worse, requiring 2 different skills depending on if you are swinging the weapon (axe/mace skill) or thrusting it (spear skill).


The broadsword skill is for using weapons in one hand, not two. If using two hands, you use the two-handed sword skill.

EDIT:: Found a quote that squashes all other comments and mine.

Originally Posted by Kromm

They don't. You use the same skill as usual.

LET IT BE KNOWN