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Old 03-29-2023, 10:04 AM   #1
Nedorus
 
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Default Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

I recently got the superb supplements Sorcery: Protection and Warning Spells and Sorcery: Sound Spells. Both are essential tools for anyone wanting to implement Magic as Powers built on the Thaumatology: Sorcery mechanics.
Shoutout to ALEKSEI ISACHENKO who also has a great blog about all things GURPS Generic Universal Eggplant

While working on my own version of the spells (I'm transcribing spells from "that other game" with cyberware and Elfes lurking the shadows somewhere) I came across
Force Wall in SORP&W7*
It is built on Crushing Attack 4d with area effect and limited: Nonmagical threats plus Jet/Missile spells.
I assume this to be Innate Attack (cr)?
It is listed to have DR 12 and HP 2 but I totally don't see any modifiers to accomplish this.

What am I missing here?

Can someone please give me full breakdown of this spell's build? (I have the modifiers of course as I have the book, but how these interact to result in the described game effect is beyond me!)
Utter Wall SORP&W14 is basically built the same way, so understanding one will help understand the other.
Interestingly Force Dome SORP&W6 and [i]Utter Dome[/] are built on Damage Resistance. Why the difference? What IS the difference?

*is this the correct book reference for Sorcery: Protection and Warning Spells?
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

Force Wall presumably has the Wall: Rigid modifier (Basic p 109) which turns the 4d crushing attack into a DR 12, HP 2 solid barrier.

I can't comment on the other two spells as I can't find my copy of the relevant PDFs.
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:36 AM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

I don't have this book but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
It is built on Crushing Attack 4d with area effect and limited: Nonmagical threats plus Jet/Missile spells.
I assume this to be Innate Attack (cr)?
Yeah, I think it's common shorthand to write things like Crushing Attack, Cutting Attack, etc, instead of Innate Attack 4d (cr; modifier; modifier; modifier).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
It is listed to have DR 12 and HP 2 but I totally don't see any modifiers to accomplish this.
As mlangsdorf notes, this sounds like the Rigid version of the Wall Enhancement, which turns your attack into a solid wall. That's how you build a power that you can just dictate where a wall will form and stay in place. DR with Forcefield, Affects Others, and Area Effect instead generates something like a dome at the edges of the Area Effect, but centered on you (or whoever/whatever you cast it on, if it's a buff).
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

OMG! Thanks! Now it seems so trivial (^_^)

Yes, it has: Wall, Shapeable, +60%

Thanks again for jogging my mind and helping me getting it up to speed... Maybe I should give myself a disadvantage like "Confused" or "Hidebound"?
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Old 03-30-2023, 05:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

So now that I have delved a bit deeper into the Force Wall design some additional questions came up:

I assume an Innate Attack 1 (cr) with area and persistent as those are prerequisites for Wall. I choose the Rigid version of wall. I also would want No Wounding added into the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B109
The wall does no damage itself, but the damage type applies to the injury inflicted on anyone crashing into it
So what would happen when an arrow (or a bullet) hits this wall ("crashes into it").

Would the wall roll to hit based on the speed-size-range modifiers?
I assume not, as the arrow really hits the barrier already ("enters the area").

So I would roll damage against the arrow straight away?
Once the arrow receives more damage than a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knockback B378
full multiple of [its] ST-2
it would be knocked back.
An arrow has no ST so
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knockback B378
If the target has no ST score at all (like a wall), or is not resisting, use its HP instead
Looking up the HP for an arrow on the Object Hit Points Table (B558) and assuming roughly 30g for an Arrow, this would be 1-2HP, let's take 2. So ANY damage (1>2-2) would knock the arrow back.

Extending this to bullets would give me a bullet-proof barrier right there with little fuss.

HOWEVER:

As this wall would have DR3 and 1HP (I chose Innate Attack 1) both arrow and bullet would roll their damage against this?
It would be hard for the arrow coming off of an average human's short bow to destroy the wall (assuming ST 10 thr 1d-2) it would need to roll a 6 = 4 damage (three to overcome the DR and one for the HP) to destroy the wall.
Anything above that would be quite easy... more ST, Longbow and not even speaking of the bullet coming off of a PDW 4.6mm ...

Is my understanding of the game mechanics correct so far?

Assuming all of the above is basically correct, on to my next question...

Which order are the above damages resolved in?
  1. Simultaneous?
  2. Damage to Arrow first?
  3. Damage to Wall first?
If one or the other goes first (options 2. or 3.), does the other still happen even when the first damage is enough to destroy / knock back?
More specifically, does the arrow receive any damage if it manages to "kill" the wall? Does it continue to its intended target, or is it destroyed nonetheless?

This seems to be a bit more clear in the permeable case of Wall:
Quote:
Originally Posted by B109
but an intruder can traverse it provided he is not stunned, knocked out, killed, etc.
The rigid case doesn't say anything in that direction.

[EDIT]
I'm thinking of adding (semi-) ablative to the DR and maybe some level of Regeneration. That's why the order of damage resolution matters.
[/EDIT]

Last edited by Nedorus; 03-30-2023 at 06:02 AM. Reason: Added some clarity as to why I'm asking this
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Old 03-30-2023, 06:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
I assume an Innate Attack 1 (cr) with area and persistent as those are prerequisites for Wall. I choose the Rigid version of wall. I also would want No Wounding added into the mix.

So what would happen when an arrow (or a bullet) hits this wall ("crashes into it").

Would the wall roll to hit based on the speed-size-range modifiers?
I assume not, as the arrow really hits the barrier already ("enters the area").

So I would roll damage against the arrow straight away?
Once the arrow receives more damage than a it would be knocked back.
A Rigid Wall is just that - a wall. It's no different than if the arrow strikes a piece of cover - there's no roll to see if the wall hits the arrow (the arrow is instead hitting the wall), and then you roll damage to see if the arrow overpenetrates (by dealing more damage than the wall's DR+HP). The wall doesn't do anything to the arrow. Normally you don't bother with rolling for collision damage when a projectile hits a piece of cover, so the No Wounding effect doesn't make any difference here (but if it were a person slamming into it, said person wouldn't take any damage from the collision). If you want a Wall that knocks back things that (try to) go through it, you'll want a Permeable Wall (or maybe a Wall where some of the damage is Rigid, some is Permeable). How to handle knockback on a projectile is ultimately up to the GM; calculating how far the projectile would be knocked back, and then retroactively applying this to the range, would be a fairly quick method (note this assumes the shooter knows the effect of the Wall and compensates for it, just as one would compensate for a strong wind; a further option would be that the first shot automatically falls short of the target by a distance equal to the knockback, and then the shooters can compensate - and can do this based on just one of them failing, as that shows them how far off-target the Wall will knock their projectile).
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Old 03-30-2023, 06:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by B109
The wall does no damage itself, but the damage type applies to the injury inflicted on anyone crashing into it.
Also, what if it wasn't a wall but a "simple" area + persistent innate attack?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persistent B107
continuing to damage [...] anyone entering or passing
through it
Here the Arrow is clearly "passing through it" and would receive damage, no?

Why would these two enhancements be prerequisites of the Wall enhancement if their rules weren't applied to things that "crashing into it"?
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Old 03-30-2023, 06:58 AM   #8
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
Really?


Also, what if it wasn't a wall but a "simple" area + persistent innate attack?


Here the Arrow is clearly "passing through it" and would receive damage, no?

Why would these two enhancements be prerequisites of the Wall enhancement if their rules weren't applied to things that "crashing into it"?
Permeable Walls function like Area + Persistent. Rigid Walls are different, in that they form an actual, physical wall that is largely no different from a mundane piece of cover. The bit about damage type affecting anyone who crashes into it means that, if you make a Cutting Wall, then when a character slams into it, the collision damage (based on their mass - or rather HP - and velocity) they take is cutting instead of crushing - essentially you create a wall of blades rather than a smooth wall. Those two Enhancements are prerequisites because, for a Wall to work, it needs to cover an area (although note Wall modifies how Area Effect works, giving you 3 hexes of Wall to work with for each nominal yard of radius), and it needs to last more than an instant (thus, you need Persistent).
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Old 03-30-2023, 07:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

OK, I think I see where you're coming from ... I think I was misreading that because
a) The Force Wall from SORP&W7 says "it blocks mundane attacks along with Jet and Missile spells" ... and
b) the build breakdown simply states Wall, shapeable, +60%

But I think now I understand the Limitation "Nonmagical threats plus Jet/Missile spells, -15%" a lot better. I thought it would rather be an odd limitation if it attacked everything passing through it anyway... But now I read the spell to be rather "Permeable" than "Rigid".

So what would any attack modifiers do on a rigid wall. Stuff like No Wounding (which happens to be on the book version of the spell) or Double Knockback? Would they have any effect at all?

On a second note / an additional question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall B109
You get a three-yard-long by one-yard-wide wall per yard of radius
So 3x1 is the footprint of the wall per yard radius, right? Height is never mentioned ...
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Old 03-30-2023, 08:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells: Question about Force Wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
So what would any attack modifiers do on a rigid wall. Stuff like No Wounding (which happens to be on the book version of the spell) or Double Knockback? Would they have any effect at all?
No Wounding means anything that suffers a collision with it doesn't get damaged. Double Knockback I'm not sure about - I don't know if a character running into a normal wall is meant to wind up knocked back by the collision (if damage is high enough). If so, Double Knockback would work just fine.

Let's say you have a 4d crushing rigid wall (with DR 12 and HP 2), and someone with 10 HP and moving at 20 yards/second slams into it. The character is going to deal 2d cr to the wall, and 2d cr to themselves. I'll assume that bouncing off of a wall is meant to be possible. Let's say they roll 8 damage (just a touch over average). With an unmodified Wall, that means they suffer 8 crushing damage (the wall is unharmed, as the character failed to get through its DR), for 8 HP Injury if unarmored, and they bounce off the wall, getting knocked back a yard. If the Wall had No Wounding, they would suffer no Injury*, but would still wind up knocked back a yard. If the Wall had Double Knockback, they would suffer 8 HP Injury if unarmored, and wind up knocked back 2 yards. And so forth.

*Technically, if wearing armor it's possible they would suffer some Injury from blunt trauma. Which is why you should almost always build your No Wounding attacks with No Blunt Trauma, if available (and for Crushing, it most certainly is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
So 3x1 is the footprint of the wall per yard radius, right? Height is never mentioned ...
A hex has a standard height of 4 yards (12 feet), so that's the default height of a Wall. I made a thread some time ago to discuss various options for Walls. A lot of the content there is solidly in houserule territory, but it may be useful to think on.
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