What do Dungeon Fantasy templates lack?

[Kalzazz]

If you want templates probably not . . . It is definitely the most comprehensive set of templates around for Fantasy stuff

But I would certainly consider why I want templates . . . I have generally found that players don't seem to have much issue with trying to make a classic fantasy archetype such as an elf archer, dwarf axeman, human wizard etc . . . . And the more 'out there' the goal is the less likely the templates are to line up

If you want to use published DF monsters and published DF adventures then it can make sense as they are calibrated with each other, but since you said you want to run a Not DF game

If you want hardcore 'everyone is well rounded and not 'out there'' it can definitely do that, but it will also cut out options that would fit but simply don't exist in DF

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

If you want templates probably not . . . It is definitely the most comprehensive set of templates around for Fantasy stuff.

Banestorm and Fantasy both have a lot of templates.

[Kalzazz]

I think the DF set is more comprehensive though you do suffer the drawback of them being scattered through many books (most in 1, races in 3, Wrestler in a Pyramid etc)

[Stormcrow]

Most of the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy series is usable with characters that aren't built with the templates in the books. Sometimes it feels like you have to use everything in a series to use the series, but you really don't.

This came home to me most strongly when I was trying to convert GURPS Tales of the Solar Patrol spaceships from Basic-Set-style vehicle stats into versions that would work with GURPS Spaceships. They really don't convert well. I finally realized I didn't have to convert anything. I could just completely ignore the spaceship design section and still use the space travel and space combat sections of the book with almost no changes.

It's exactly the same with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. Ignore the templates if you want, ignore the tongue-in-cheek gaming satire, and all the other stuff still works perfectly well for a more serious fantasy game.

[Kalzazz]

Dungeon Fantasy has a lot of hidden assumptions like 'it us really hard to do legit area effect damage'

If you then go and allow a PC with an area effect innate attack things may start falling apart

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

While there are many choices, some choices are very specific and may not match up with what you want. For instance if you want to roll an Archer, great you can be a Scout. Want to be an Archer who isn't Noodle Arms Nature Boy? Uh, yeah, no

If you want a generic archer rather than a Scout, then going off Delvers to Grow you could drop Outdoorsman and some of the related skills, either replacing them with another Talent and associated skills or just dropping those points into the slush fund. For a [62] Novice, that's a shifting of [14] (drop Outdoorsman, Camouflage, Navigation, Survival, and Tracking), whichi is probably good enough to take some of the bite out of one of those Disadvantage Modules. For a [125] Journeyman or [187] Master, it's a shifting of [31] (drop Outdoorsman 2, Cartography, Mimicry, Traps, and Tracking from Scout II, in addition to what was dropped from the Basic Module), which is enough to pick up an additional Upgrade module with some change to spare. Or you can invest those points toward a Racial Template. Those shifts are hardly insignificant, of course, but shouldn't break anything (although the GM may want to disallow simply investing them all straight into Bow).

You could also probably restructure the Knight or Swashbuckler into an archer fairly readily, depending on what sort of archer you want (a restructured Knight is probably a decent fit for a military archer, while a restructured Swashbuckler will be mixing in some impressive stunts, like shield surfing or loosing arrows during a cartwheel or similar).

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by bocephus

I use the DF books a lot for my "medieval 'fantasy' worlds". Some of them a lot more than others. I dont use the DFRPG box, mostly because I just dont subscribe to the vision that they target, Dungeon Delving and nothing else, its just not my thing. Plus there is nothing in DFRPG that isn't in GURPS.

I dont use the prepackaged templates because my worlds are largely mine so a generic template includes or excludes things that dont fit my setting and I rarely run a game that starts at 200+.

I do use a lot of the content in the DF books though, and recommend pretty much all of them for good content and inspiration. Even the templates have value as inspiration. I cant think of one to highlight above others because they are all pretty good for me.

This is basically my take. There is lots of stuff to be mined in the Dungeon Fantasy line. I will use standard GURPS rules. I'm for starting lower than 200 points. In fact I'm at 100 to 150.

That doesn't mean there are lots of great books to use for both inspiration and for general use. I'm sure traps, magic items, and monsters are generally useful. Locales are always useful. And if you like a rule in DFRPG over the GURPS rule then use it.

Outside the Dungeon Fantasy line though there is a lot of mine. Magic, Thaumatology, Powers, Low-Tech, Boardroom's and Curia, and so many more. if you want a rich world there is a lot of source material to make it better.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Even if you don't use the templates as-is, it's always nice to have a curated list of suggestions for various character concepts.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

So are there better books for that?

Kromm's list of skills every adventurer should have is, in my opinion, the most basic template for creating a GURPS character.

I always add Area Knowledge as a basic background trait to my characters, and often some form of Current Affairs. For modern characters, Computer Operation should be added. That makes for a basically well-rounded character. Anything else that's important will probably be tied to the character concept, i.e. Blacksmith or Computer Programming or Teaching.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Relying on defaults -- whatever the game system calls them -- is rarely fun. In GURPS, I hint that certain skills are necessary for adventurers, true action heroes or not, to keep the story flowing without annoying breaks caused by PCs being incompetent at tasks that adventure fiction commonly treats as "everyman" skills:

• Carousing, Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, or Interrogation -- Eventually, everybody wants to interrogate NPCs. I'm generous about what skills work, but some skill is required.
  
  
• Climbing, Hiking, and Stealth -- The party is only as good at these things as its worst party member, and nearly every party has to move around as a unit at some point.
  
  
• Driving or Riding -- Travel is vital to adventure, and while "every hero can drive/ride a horse" is often assumed, it isn't automatic in games that have skills for these things.
  
  
• First Aid -- Effective bandaging isn't an unskilled activity, AD&D notwithstanding. Non-action heroes often want to do this to "contribute" to party combat effectiveness, so they especially need this skill.
  
  
• Gesture -- Sooner or later, communication without making a sound will be vital to almost any party's survival.
  
  
• Observation, Scrounging, or Search -- Noticing interesting things takes training, and finding clues and useful items is so central to adventures that no PC should lack at least basic training here.
  
  
• Savoir-Faire or Streetwise -- Everybody came from somewhere. It's passing annoying when a player just assumes that her PC would "get on with folks in her element" without having any practical social skills to back up the assumption.

I further suggest -- strongly -- that action heroes have this list as well:

• Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Knife, Shortsword, or Staff -- Wielding a stick, knife, or heavy tool to any real effect requires practice. These common improvised weapons are not idiot-proof, trivial, or safe to use without training.
  
  
• Beam Weapons, Bow, Crossbow, or Guns -- However easy "point and shoot" looks, it's quite tough in reality. No credible action hero lacks competency at all ranged combat.
  
  
• Boxing, Brawling, or Karate -- Fisticuffs are the worst place to be untrained. Your fists are the only weapons you always have, so learn to use them.
  
  
• Forced Entry -- No, it isn't easy to kick in a door. Actually, unless you know how, you'll hurt yourself.
  
  
• Holdout -- "Concealable" equipment only works if you have skill at concealment, and frustratingly few players realize this.
  
  
• Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling -- The number of people who think they should be able to grab others automatically is astounding. In fact, this is a difficult feat, trickier than hitting people, and absolutely requires training.
  
  
• Throwing -- Whether you're tossing spare magazines to friends or grenades at enemies, this is a trained skill, so it pays to know it.

I think that players would be far less unhappy about surprises if more GMs made lists like this and did everything possible to get players to take them seriously. A PC with Brawling, Fast-Talk, Forced Entry, Holdout, Knife, Scrounging, Stealth, and Wrestling should be able to make and conceal a shiv, overpower a guard, steal his clothes, sneak away from the scene, talk his way past the other guards, and leave through an inadequately bolted back door.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

If you want a generic archer rather than a Scout, then going off Delvers to Grow you could drop Outdoorsman and some of the related skills, either replacing them with another Talent and associated skills or just dropping those points into the slush fund. For a [62] Novice, that's a shifting of [14] (drop Outdoorsman, Camouflage, Navigation, Survival, and Tracking), whichi is probably good enough to take some of the bite out of one of those Disadvantage Modules. For a [125] Journeyman or [187] Master, it's a shifting of [31] (drop Outdoorsman 2, Cartography, Mimicry, Traps, and Tracking from Scout II, in addition to what was dropped from the Basic Module), which is enough to pick up an additional Upgrade module with some change to spare. Or you can invest those points toward a Racial Template. Those shifts are hardly insignificant, of course, but shouldn't break anything (although the GM may want to disallow simply investing them all straight into Bow).

You could also probably restructure the Knight or Swashbuckler into an archer fairly readily, depending on what sort of archer you want (a restructured Knight is probably a decent fit for a military archer, while a restructured Swashbuckler will be mixing in some impressive stunts, like shield surfing or loosing arrows during a cartwheel or similar).

Yah.

The real key here would be breaking the "rules" about choosing upgrade modules. Frankly, I expect a lot of folks to discard the strictures of the prerequisites and building characters free-form.

Making a strong delver with the chops of an archer can be as simple as adding the Archery Specialist upgrade to an existing character and making the right weapon selections. Picking up Heroic Archer (and unlocking it from Scout-only) is the next step.