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Old 09-14-2015, 03:32 PM   #21
Lia Valenth
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
...Well, that might be your problem then. The primary purpose of sorcery is to have a base ability that you then buy other things from as alternate abilities. Basically the rules try to hide the complexity of alternate abilities...
I also disagree here. I thought the point was pretty much to use Sorcery as a form of UB that allows access to spells that count as AA without requiring all the thematic linking AAs normally require.

IMO, if you do not need Sorcery to gain access to other spells and can just use spells as AAs of each other, there would be almost no point in taking the Sorcery advantage. Yes, it is a campaign switch, but it is an assumed campaign switch if you are using Sorcery. Assuming that campaign switch is active, spells must be AA of Sorcery as the primary, college-limited sorcery does have a problem.
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Old 09-14-2015, 03:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Originally Posted by Lia Valenth View Post
I also disagree here. I thought the point was pretty much to use Sorcery as a form of UB that allows access to spells that count as AA without requiring all the thematic linking AAs normally require.
It's a very small UB in that case -- it increases your total cost by all of 12 points for Sorcery 6.
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Originally Posted by Lia Valenth View Post
Assuming that campaign switch is active, spells must be AA of Sorcery as the primary, college-limited sorcery does have a problem.
There actually is a way to do this: just allow the primary ability to be something other than sorcery, as long as it doesn't exceed sorcery*10 points. Thus, the earth mage can buy (60 point spell) [60] plus (Sorcery 6, Earth) [9]. That saves 3 points -- equivalent to taking -40% on that 12 point extra cost that is generated by sorcery.
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Originally Posted by Lia Valenth View Post
I also disagree here. I thought the point was pretty much to use Sorcery as a form of UB that allows access to spells that count as AA without requiring all the thematic linking AAs normally require.

IMO, if you do not need Sorcery to gain access to other spells and can just use spells as AAs of each other, there would be almost no point in taking the Sorcery advantage. Yes, it is a campaign switch, but it is an assumed campaign switch if you are using Sorcery. Assuming that campaign switch is active, spells must be AA of Sorcery as the primary, college-limited sorcery does have a problem.
Remember that bit normal improvisation and hard core improvisation is based on your Sorcerous Empowerment. That is what you get for the UB part. I would think that alone would make it worthwhile. If you used only the spells you could not do either type of improvisation.

In fact I do think that allowing separate "Spell like abilities" might be a nice idea once you have big enough list of spells in the spellbooks for people to chose from, they would simply be spells that are not in any way linked to the other spells and might have other limitations like a limited number of uses/day or others that are not used when the spells are sorcery based.
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Old 09-15-2015, 01:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

My first thought was applying the same (Earth Only) Limitation to each of your purchased spells. Seems like a simple way to make your limited selection a bit easier to buy.

If limiting Magery makes it easier to get high powered earth spells, then limiting Sorcery should be able to do the same. And if this encourages people to limit their Sorcery a lot (Earth only and Dark aspected as the example earlier) to take advantage of the cheaper spells? Good, they won't complain when their magic is stripped from them because someone lit a torch or cast a light or fire spell to brighten the room. It gives the GM obstacles to put in the path of the sorcerer and their goal.
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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There actually is a way to do this: just allow the primary ability to be something other than sorcery, as long as it doesn't exceed sorcery*10 points. Thus, the earth mage can buy (60 point spell) [60] plus (Sorcery 6, Earth) [9]. That saves 3 points -- equivalent to taking -40% on that 12 point extra cost that is generated by sorcery.
Yes, this is the fairest way to accomplish what Varyon wants. Let the sorcerer pay full price for his most expensive spell -- the Full Cost of which cannot exceed (his Sorcery + 1)*10 -- and then pay 1/5 price for his other spells and his limited Sorcery. That's rules-legal and still within the spirit of sorcery.

(Note that I'm not endorsing this as the "right" way to handle limited sorcery; what Varyon sees as a bug, I see as a feature. But I'll happily endorse it as an optional rule!)
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Last edited by PK; 09-16-2015 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:21 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Yes, this is the fairest way to accomplish what Varyon wants. Let the sorcerer pay full price for his most expensive spell -- the Full Cost of which cannot exceed his Sorcery*10 -- and then pay 1/5 price for his other spells and his limited Sorcery. That's rules-legal and still within the spirit of sorcery.

(Note that I'm not endorsing this as the "right" way to handle limited sorcery; what Varyon sees as a bug, I see as a feature. But I'll happily endorse it as an optional rule!)
Seems reasonable, though I don't see why the wording of sorcery can't be errata'd to have it be Sorcery*10 points in value, rather than the total number of points in sorcery. The issue ALSO extends in the other direction, where enhancements to the sorcery advantage enhances the point limit for their known spells (significantly), while having much much less ability to improvise than their "more normal" counterparts. It's bizarre.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:22 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Yes, this is the fairest way to accomplish what Varyon wants. Let the sorcerer pay full price for his most expensive spell -- the Full Cost of which cannot exceed his Sorcery*10 -- and then pay 1/5 price for his other spells and his limited Sorcery. That's rules-legal and still within the spirit of sorcery.

(Note that I'm not endorsing this as the "right" way to handle limited sorcery; what Varyon sees as a bug, I see as a feature. But I'll happily endorse it as an optional rule!)
Shouldn't it be 10+SorceryŚ10, for the point cost of his most expensive spell? IDNHMBWM, but IIRC Sorcery 1 costs 20 points, with each additional level costing 10 points...

Mind you, this sort of questions were why I decided against allowing limited sorcery for the eponymous template I created for this month's pyramid...
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Old 09-16-2015, 08:58 AM   #28
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Yes, this is the fairest way to accomplish what Varyon wants. Let the sorcerer pay full price for his most expensive spell -- the Full Cost of which cannot exceed his Sorcery*10 -- and then pay 1/5 price for his other spells and his limited Sorcery. That's rules-legal and still within the spirit of sorcery.
Having thought about it further, I think this is probably the best route (and for credit where it's due, I should note munin was the first to suggest this). Yes, this path means you're only paying a little less than you would be if you just bought you Limited Sorcery up enough to pull it off, but doing that only gets you the improved ability to improvise, which as I noted I don't see as being worth all that much in this system. There is still something of a problem in that the Geomancer who has Earth to Stone as a Known Spell using this method has only spent a few points less than the Elementalist who has the same (and can have Known Spells from a few other colleges), but that's probably acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Desthro View Post
The issue ALSO extends in the other direction, where enhancements to the sorcery advantage enhances the point limit for their known spells (significantly), while having much much less ability to improvise than their "more normal" counterparts. It's bizarre.
Can Sorcery even have Enhancements? The only one I can think of that would be worthwhile would be some sort of partial level, which would serve to boost the cost of Sorcery specifically for the purpose of being able to have better Known Spells and do hardcore improvisation better. For example, a character normally needs Sorcery 6 to improvise Flesh to Stone or have it as a Known Spell. Sorcery 5.1, however, would give you [61] as your base cost, allowing you to pull off that spell (albeit at -10 if improvised).
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Handling Specialists

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Shouldn't it be 10+SorceryŚ10, for the point cost of his most expensive spell?
Whoops, yep. Edited to fix.
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