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Old 02-11-2010, 12:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by younglorax View Post
This would be a good solution, if you want Tunneling to still be dependent on Can Carry Objects.


It seemed at first like Tunneling would be inherently better than Can Carry Objects if it let you carry stuff through your hole, but I don't think so anymore. That's because it would make sense to have both advantages:

Tunnelman only has tunneling:
(1)Tunnelman is fleeing from Badguy with his ally. He cruises through a wall with all his gear and his ally in tow... but then so does Badguy.
(2)Tunnelman is fleeing from Badguy with his ally. He cruises through the wall... but has to ditch his ally and his gear.

Carryman only has Can Carry Objects:
(3)Carryman is fleeing from Badguy with his ally. He cruises through the wall with all his gear and Badguy can't follow... but neither can his ally.

Carry McTunnel has both
Carry McTunnel is fleeing from Badguy with his ally. He takes his pick from among the three alternatives above.

----

I feel pretty good about the idea that you can carry objects through the tunnel, but I'm still not 100% clear on whether you can be carrying objects while making the tunnel in the first place.

Any thoughts?
2a) Tunnelman burns fatigue and uses the temporary enhancement rules from Powers to take his gear and ally through the wall with him.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Why would they have to strip?
... because you built a tunnel that has Cannot Carry Objects. I'm talking from the standpoint that it is possible to have Permeation and Tunneling without having a built-in Can Carry Objects. Such a tunnel is strange and probably violates the laws of physics, but I could see such existing in an appropriate setting. If your setting isn't one where it's appropriate, you can require Can Carry Objects as a prerequisite for Tunneling... or throw them together and forbid someone from dropping the built-in Enhancement.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
... because you built a tunnel that has Cannot Carry Objects.
This was never, ever considered to be the case during the Basic or Powers playtests; just sayin'.

It's a little odd to be able to tunnel through stone when you are naked, but be stopped cold if you have a "Kick Me" sign taped to your back or to have it suddenly flutter to the ground because you started to put your hand through a rock, but I'm pretty sure making it the tunnel's fault is still more odd. Examining why happens when you try to Carry Objects when you can't is probably the more productive pursuit.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
... because you built a tunnel that has Cannot Carry Objects. .
Tunnels don't need "Can Carry Objects". It's a physical hole like any other.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:44 PM   #25
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
This was never, ever considered to be the case during the Basic or Powers playtests; just sayin'.
Actually, I'm pretty interested in the intent of the rule. I'd guess if the playtests said that your Tunnel doesn't need CCO, that was the intent.

Is that a reasonable guess?
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Tunnels don't need "Can Carry Objects". It's a physical hole like any other.
If its a physical hole like any other, yes. I was working under the assumption that Can Carry Objects was not built into the Tunnel Enhancement... in which case it would not be a physical hole like any other, but instead some strange construct that prevents you from getting through while carrying stuff.

Jeff has since indicated that the intent was that Tunnel essentially does include a Can Carry Objects effect, however, so the discussion may well be null.
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:49 AM   #27
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: Permeation with Tunneling vs. Can Carry Objects

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Originally Posted by younglorax View Post
Actually, I'm pretty interested in the intent of the rule. I'd guess if the playtests said that your Tunnel doesn't need CCO, that was the intent.

Is that a reasonable guess?
Tunneling was available with Permeation during the 4/e playtest and given an unremarked pass (other than some integrating Possession rules) , but Can Carry Objects was not added until afterward, and follows the model and wording of Insubstantiality very closely despite them being "very different". It also does not seem to have been remarked upon in the Powers playtest.

I would say that this heavily favors letting a Permeater-tunneler drag as much as he can carry behind him, but you still need CCO to haul stuff along without a tunnel. Power modifiers and rationale would inform what happens if you try to Permeate with gear but without CCO; obviously, metal handcuffs won't retrain a metal permeater, a cursed ring would leave ring-sized hole in a .paper screen that might not be noticed right away by people chasing a paper-permeater.

I'd also say that Meld (my favorite POWERS ability) is likely incompatible with simultaneous Tunnel, but a good match with CCO. ("The Mountain King reaches into the living rock and looks thoughtful as he appears to root around inside the solid surface before retrieving his gauntleted hand, now clutching a fortune in raw gems and nuggets, some still wet with chilly springwater and others reeking of scorched brimstone.")
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