Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2024, 10:27 AM   #21
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
Of course, if you want them to throw motorcycles, you might as well keep the original ST.

.
Nope. ST 20 is very marginal for throwing motorcycles. It can't even lift the 0.4 ton TL6 Heavy Bike from over the possessor's head without Extra Effort. If it could the distance would be a not very impressive 1.2 yards. With the TL7 Scooter you could lift it but you still only get 1.6 yards. It is my opinion that Captain America does not throw Vespas at bad guys.

So, if you think "throwing motorcycles" is a superhuman feat then ST 20 isn't the ST level that goes with that thought.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2024, 03:05 PM   #22
WholesomeMadScientist
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Nope. ST 20 is very marginal for throwing motorcycles. It can't even lift the 0.4 ton TL6 Heavy Bike from over the possessor's head without Extra Effort. If it could the distance would be a not very impressive 1.2 yards. With the TL7 Scooter you could lift it but you still only get 1.6 yards. It is my opinion that Captain America does not throw Vespas at bad guys.

So, if you think "throwing motorcycles" is a superhuman feat then ST 20 isn't the ST level that goes with that thought.
It was never my intention to draw up a Captain America character sheet. I was merely attempting to turn the 3e Super Soldier template from Weird War II pg. 108 into a 4e racial template as accurately as possible. For anyone to use if they so wish.

Super-Soldier

Attributes: ST +4 [40]; HT +3 [30]; DX +1 [20]; HP+3 [6].
Advantages: Combat Reflexes [15]; Boosted Speed [18]; Very Fit [15].
Disadvantages: Increased Life Support (X2 food requirements) [-10]

Last edited by WholesomeMadScientist; 02-14-2024 at 03:08 PM. Reason: mispunctuated
WholesomeMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2024, 08:06 PM   #23
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by WholesomeMadScientist View Post
It was never my intention to draw up a Captain America character sheet. I was merely attempting to turn the 3e Super Soldier template from Weird War II pg. 108 into a 4e racial template as accurately as possible. For anyone to use if they so wish.

Super-Soldier

Attributes: ST +4 [40]; HT +3 [30]; DX +1 [20]; HP+3 [6].
Advantages: Combat Reflexes [15]; Boosted Speed [18]; Very Fit [15].
Disadvantages: Increased Life Support (X2 food requirements) [-10]
The basic Super-Soldier from Weird War II wasn't intended to be a Captain America either. At 250 pts it was far to low in pts to do that.

However, with his ST 19 he does do 2D-1 Thrust and due to different rules for unarmed combat he would have done 2D-2 with his relatively low level of Brawling Skill. By coincidence, even with different rules in 4e he would do the same (and this could be increased with even a little more Skill). He is (at least in theory) a formidable unarmed combatant

At ST 14 (in 4e) this "super soldier" only punches for 1D-1 and is not a truly formidable unarmed combatant.

He also doesn't have the Min ST to use the M-1 Plus Garand seen in Weird War II.

<shrug> No one chooses ST 19 to have (in 3e) 38 lbs of No Encumbrance. They choose it because that's where Thrust damage goes from 1D to 2D.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2024, 09:48 PM   #24
WholesomeMadScientist
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The basic Super-Soldier from Weird War II wasn't intended to be a Captain America either. At 250 pts it was far to low in pts to do that.

However, with his ST 19 he does do 2D-1 Thrust and due to different rules for unarmed combat he would have done 2D-2 with his relatively low level of Brawling Skill. By coincidence, even with different rules in 4e he would do the same (and this could be increased with even a little more Skill). He is (at least in theory) a formidable unarmed combatant

At ST 14 (in 4e) this "super soldier" only punches for 1D-1 and is not a truly formidable unarmed combatant.

He also doesn't have the Min ST to use the M-1 Plus Garand seen in Weird War II.

<shrug> No one chooses ST 19 to have (in 3e) 38 lbs of No Encumbrance. They choose it because that's where Thrust damage goes from 1D to 2D.
But, the Bio-Tech Spartan template has ST+3 and Lifting ST +2 and are described: “The Spartan parahuman has hormone-boosted muscles, a reinforced skeleton, reduced pain response, and sharpened reflexes for emergency situations. They're usually used as genetic soldiers, specially-bred cops, or colonists on harsh worlds ... and some Spartans are strong enough to use some crew-served heavy weapons as if they were rifles.”

Last edited by WholesomeMadScientist; 02-14-2024 at 11:06 PM.
WholesomeMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2024, 10:21 PM   #25
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by WholesomeMadScientist View Post
But, the Bio-Tech Spartan template has ST+ and Lifting ST +2 and are described: “The Spartan parahuman has hormone-boosted muscles, a reinforced skeleton, reduced pain response, and sharpened reflexes for emergency situations. They're usually used as genetic soldiers, specially-bred cops, or colonists on harsh worlds ... and some Spartans are strong enough to use some crew-served heavy weapons as if they were rifles.”
<shrug>That was the flavor text in the 3e version of Bio-Tech (where they were ST+5) and it was largely unchanged for 4e.

It was also mostly untrue for published weapons in 3e and it's worse in 4e. UT for 4e only 4 weapons with a ST of 15 and the Skill for them is Rifle(Beam) or the KE equivalent. For anything using a Gunner Skill it's at least 18 for energy semi-portables and 20 for KE ones.

Don't trust fluff or favor text. It's very often wrong. Look at game rules instead..
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2024, 08:06 AM   #26
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug>That was the flavor text in the 3e version of Bio-Tech (where they were ST+5) and it was largely unchanged for 4e.

It was also mostly untrue for published weapons in 3e and it's worse in 4e. UT for 4e only 4 weapons with a ST of 15 and the Skill for them is Rifle(Beam) or the KE equivalent. For anything using a Gunner Skill it's at least 18 for energy semi-portables and 20 for KE ones.

Don't trust fluff or favor text. It's very often wrong. Look at game rules instead..
It says some Spartans are strong enough to use crew-served weapons like rifles, not that all Spartans are. Assuming Lifting ST is what you use for firearms, you only need a further +2 (net 17) to be able to use an M1919A4 (HT132/137), +4 (net 19) to be able to use the Molot NSV-12.7 (HT136/137), or +5 (net 20) to be able to use a GE M134 "minigun" (HT 135/137). ST 15 for a normal human certainly counts as exceptional, but isn't unachievable (particularly with some of that being lifting-only), so ST 20 should be roughly as achievable for a Spartan.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2024, 08:30 AM   #27
WholesomeMadScientist
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It says some Spartans are strong enough to use crew-served weapons like rifles, not that all Spartans are. Assuming Lifting ST is what you use for firearms, you only need a further +2 (net 17) to be able to use an M1919A4 (HT132/137), +4 (net 19) to be able to use the Molot NSV-12.7 (HT136/137), or +5 (net 20) to be able to use a GE M134 "minigun" (HT 135/137). ST 15 for a normal human certainly counts as exceptional, but isn't unachievable (particularly with some of that being lifting-only), so ST 20 should be roughly as achievable for a Spartan.
What is the ST to lift 6,270 lbs (world record)?


What is the ST to lift 619.5 lbs (GAU-8 Avenger)?
WholesomeMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2024, 09:14 AM   #28
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by WholesomeMadScientist View Post
What is the ST to lift 6,270 lbs (world record)?


What is the ST to lift 619.5 lbs (GAU-8 Avenger)?
That was apparently a Back Lift (and is a contested figure), which is probably somewhere around "Carry on Back" (15xBL) - probably more, as the lifter apparently only has to lift the item an inch or so, which may be closer to "Shift Slightly" (50xBL). So at the high end (Carry on Back) that calls for a BL of 418 lb, or around effective Lifting ST of 46 (which gives BL 423.2 lb). At the low end (Shift Slightly), that calls for a BL of 125.4,or just a touch over ST 25 (which gives BL 125). Of course, Lifting skill and Extra Effort (and Extra Effort is absolutely going to be in play for world-record lifts!) let you get away with a lower actual Lifting ST than that.

Lifting a GAU-8 Avenger in two hands in a timely fashion (1 second) probably needs a BL of 309.75, which calls for ST 40. But you'd need more than that to fire it, even after modifying it so it can be used that way - that M1919A4 weighs a bit over 45 lb loaded, which only needs BL 22.5 or so to lift in this fashion, meaning ST 11 would be sufficient. But it calls for ST 17 to actually use it like a rifle, and that has a BL of 57.8 - around 1.25x the weight of the weapon. Applying the same to the GAU-8 calls for a BL of around 775, or around ST 63. Of course, a GAU-8 by its lonesome is useless - you need the feed system, the ammo drum, and the ammo itself. Wikipedia says a fully-loaded and ready-to-rock-and-roll GAU-8 weighs around 4,029 lb; simply lifting that in a timely fashion calls for BL 2014.5 (ST 101), and I don't think I'd allow it to be used without sufficient ST to lift it one-handed, for BL 4029 (ST 142); the same 1.25x as above would instead call for BL 5036.25 (ST 159).
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2024, 09:25 AM   #29
WholesomeMadScientist
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
@
Thank you, I am just trying to get my bearings with “land marks”. Seeing the extremes in ST and then compare.
WholesomeMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2024, 11:02 AM   #30
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Weird War II Super-Soldiers as a 4e Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It says some Spartans are strong enough to use crew-served weapons like rifles, not that all Spartans are. n.
So it's Spartans who have bought their ST up way over their racial average? Some genetically unmodified humans who's done enough of that could do the same thing.

Also, pet peeve but Lifting ST is an Exotic Trait. Only in a Supers campaign (or its' virtual equivalent) could you buy up unlimited Lifting ST just because you wanted it.

The right Martial Art could let you buy Perk-level UBs for 1-3 pts of Lifting ST.

The sort of Bio-tech that could produce a Spartan could also probably do Muscle Augmentation implants (which grants Lift + Strike) but there's a significant difference between a "certain model of bioroid" and "a certain model of bioroid with $50,000 of drugs and implants"
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bio-tech, supersoldiers, weird war ii, world war ii, wwii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.