The necessity of thiefs

[Anders]

I know that having a thief in your party is a hallowed tradition, but is it really necessary? I'm seriously thinking about scrapping them, because it seems they do nothing that the Wizard and the Scout can't handle.

[tbone]

A thief might not be purely necessary (unless the GM packs in enough traps and locks to make one necessary).

But they're fun to play anyway. So there's that. : )

[Polydamas]

I've seen arguments that they are pretty useless in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, because there are spells which can do their schticks but better, unless the dungeon is so littered with traps and chances to sneak that the FP cost becomes an issue.

[Michael Thayne]

There's a lot of overlap between Scout and Thief—I guess I would think of a Thief as an "indoor/urban Scout". But this is not like early editions of The Other RPG where it was on some level assumed that the default party consisted of 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 thief, and 1 wizard.

[Anders]

Yeah, that other game has pretty much given up on thieves being anything but damage dealers. Been playing OotA and the thief has picked maybe two or three locks and detected one trap, but man does he shine in combat!

[Polydamas]

That was not how I remember it in 3e D&D. But Sneak Attack heavy Rogues, and films and games with Lithe Acrobatic Assassins, may give players the wrong expectations for the Dungeon Fantasy rogue.

Here is Peter Dell'Orto's take on the class https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.co...-df-thief.html

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Anders

I know that having a thief in your party is a hallowed tradition, but is it really necessary?

No.

The "old school" style DF thief (a skilled criminal, but poor combatant) is a bit of a niche PC. Can be fun in the right hands or in the right situation but not actually well suited to the kind of delving folks usually play these days.

A more fighty D&D 3e+ rogue type is a swashbuckler-thief or maybe a scout-thief.

But really, the vital roles in DF are tank, healer, and wizzo. The conditions and traditions back in older DnD that made thieves sorta-kinda necessary are not nearly as influential these days.

I'll add that one of the best solo characters is any other template with a thief lens to add stealth and practical looting skills.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by martinl

A more fighty D&D 3e+ rogue type is a swashbuckler-thief or maybe a scout-thief.

Most of the "thieves" in fantasy novels or films probably fall into those categories too, modeled either on Robin Hood (in which case they're scouts) or "pirates" (in which case they're Swashbucklers). I suppose some of them are con men (who'd be Bards) too, though those aren't great fits for dungeon delving either. Straight up sneak thieves are rare - Bilbo is a bit of an outlier, and even he does nearly as many scout-y or con-artist-y type things as actual sneak thieving.

[tbone]

You'll probably find this post on the No School Grognard website interesting, on the problems of thief usefulness:
The Effectiveness of Thieves in Dungeon Fantasy

Reading that, I wrote this in turn:
The Talented Thief: Stealing the Spotlight in GURPS and DFRPG

My take in short: Yeah, thieves really don't have a lot going for them beyond lots of mundane skills at good levels. To get the best out of a thief, really finesse those skill choices, get the GM's help in making those skills useful, and - the bulk of the article - really crank up the skill levels using Talents. (DFRPG could use more thiefly Talents, several of which I humbly suggest.)

I think that part about GM involvement is really key. A thief in the party means there's a player who wants to sneak and steal and pick locks. And for a GM, these aren't difficult challenges to work into an adventure. With said challenges involving big skill penalties that demand a thief's unusually high skill levels. Or with said challenges occurring unusually often in no-mana zones. : )

GMs should also be lenient in letting thieves stray a bit from template. All the town-focused thief skills don't always see a lot of use in play. More than "thief", the label "treasure hunter" might better capture what some players have in mind, with fewer points in Filch, Pickpocket, etc. and more in Acrobatics, Climbing, Merchant, etc.

There are ways to bring a thief more into front-line play, too, which I didn't write about. One is as others here have noted: if there isn't a player keen on grabbing all the bow-and-tracking spotlight with a scout, then really go off template and fold scout abilities into the thief. It's a good fit.

The thief won't be as good at the outdoor stuff (including Tracking). That's OK; it's what the barbarian and maybe druid are for. But with DX 15 (and a good chance of being an elf or halfling to boot), a thief is more than ready to pick up the archer role. Shooting from the shadows or from an inaccessible perch makes for great synergy with other thief abilities. Plus, Weapon Master (Bow) is no problem; just swap WM (Knives) for WM (Bow). Strongbow is cheap. The only remaining tricky part is the expensive Heroic Archer. I'd scrounge most of those points by giving up Perfect Balance. (With DX 15, a thief doesn't actually need PB that much!)

The scout's "bounty hunter" role, in particular, fits well with thieves. Weapons like nets and bolas fit the job, and work their capture magic regardless of user ST (another thief shortcoming).

In short: A PC who's the go-to guy for stealthy/sneaky exploits and lock/trap work, as well as a solid ranged damage-dealer in combat, should be both vital to the party and fun.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by tbone

I think that part about GM involvement is really key.

Published adventures don't help here. They do usually have some trapped or meteoric locks so the barbarian has to bleed to open them while the wizard sadly shakes his head. Mostly though, bashing doors is like playing bagpipes after midnight: it attracts wandering monsters, they get mashed, and the party goes on.

That's locks. When it comes to filch, pickpocket, and sleight of hand I don't remember any uses outside of Pagoda of Worlds. Forging and counterfeiting are also rare, although not entirely unexamined.