Silent Ammunition Questions

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Closest you could come would probably be some form of high powered crossbow, speargun, or dart slingshot.

By which time the squelch of the hit, and likely screams, are becoming a problem. Killing people instantly and silently is hard.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by johndallman

By which time the squelch of the hit, and likely screams, are becoming a problem. Killing people instantly and silently is hard.

Hell, just falling over can be pretty loud. Particularly if they're carrying stuff that clatters.

[Kromm]

I run a secret-agents campaign with many of the same needs. Played by the rules – and that's how I roll when it comes to the tactical stuff in my game – sound-suppressed firearms simply aren't quiet enough to prevent the initial targets from alerting backup, if only by dying loudly. Most are audible to any half-competent guards, especially if they have surveillance electronics. Thus, the PCs have had to find alternative solutions.

The PCs should conduct extensive surveillance and intelligence-gathering first. As much as possible, they must strive to learn how many baddies there are, where they are, where they're keeping the objective (hostages, easily-deleted computer records, or whatever), and what gear they have. They require maps or floor plans of the area. They need schematics of any security systems. They should learn their rivals' habits, language of communication, and duty roster. Ideally, they want to nab passwords and responses, too. This calls for skills like Body Language, Cartography, Electronics Operation (Surveillance), Lip Reading, Observation, Photography, and Research, followed by Intelligence Analysis.

If the situation doesn't look like a fortress or a prison – that is, the baddies admit important associates, send people out for things, order things in, perhaps even receive visits from family, friends, hookers, or whatever – then the PCs should consider using social means to infiltrate. This won't necessarily achieve the objective in itself, but it can gather further, useful intelligence. It can sometimes get an ally inside, in a position to protect the objective, before the real raid hits. Real hotshots can even convince the enemy that they work for the same boss or cause, and arrange for the objective to be moved (vehicles are far easier to hit) or handed over! This calls for decent Acting, Fast-Talk and other Influence skills, often various Cultural Familiarities and Languages, and sometimes Disguise.

Where social means are limited or out of the question, forcing the baddies out in a way that doesn't like like an attack is useful. Sometimes a simple fire alarm will do. A real fire, in a building or a wooded area, can work. This can get quite exotic . . . the PCs in my campaign once infected people with a nonlethal intestinal virus! The key thing is to get the enemy to leave willingly without thinking it's an attack. Skills depend on the kind of ruse, but this might be anything from Electronics Repair of various kinds to tamper with alarms, through Explosives for arson, to Bioengineering for that virus. In some cases, a faux news broadcast using Performance and Propaganda, and very likely Electronics Operation (Communications and/or Media), can turn up the heat enough that the opposition decides to relocate.

If some of these tricks work, then the enemies may go on the move. This is an ideal time to hit them. Watch the doors and watch their vehicles. Once they're in the open, stealth is less relevant. Just be sure to take out the baddies nearest the objective first. If the opposition is merely moving to avoid real trouble, the "guards" on the objective are unlikely to be one Wait maneuver away from a failed mission. More likely, they'll be trying to hustle the package as quickly as possible. Taking them out with ordinary, unsilenced rifles can do the job just fine . . . Someone with Leadership and/or Tactics can be useful to coordinate the hit, and Absolute Timing is awesome.

Should tricks not work, then the PCs who go in should be athletic, stealthy, and technically proficient enough to enter the target area over rooftops, via service tunnels or vents, through top-story windows, etc. in order to gain access to the objective before interacting with the enemy. Then they should exfiltrate with the package, avoiding sentries where possible, hitting them from behind where unavoidable, and counting on the opposition's natural reaction to be outward-directed initially. This usually requires impressive levels of Climbing and Stealth, along with night camo, padded climbing gear, sticky-soled shoes, etc.; high levels of skills like Electronics Operation (Security), Electronics Repair (Security), Lockpicking, and Traps, along with tools and ideally schematics; and totally avoiding Forced Entry, explosives, and any interaction, however silent, with sentries.

In practice, the actual plan usually ends up using a variety of methods. For instance, bad guys who aren't susceptible to social engineering can still have, say, rivals whom they wouldn't regard as a threat worthy of shooting their hostages – maybe other terrorists, or the crime lord they stole their weapons from, or even a splinter faction. If the PCs walk the walk and talk the talk, the opposition may decide to lock up the objective and then fight them. Likewise, even if the whole team can't sneak in, a single inflitrator could get away with it, and get near enough to the objective to protect it when the raid hits. My PCs are the sorts who would have that person go in with squibs and blood capsules, doll a hostage up as dead, doll himself up as dead, and give the baddies the impression that one of their own shot the hostages and infiltrator already . . . but that's baroque.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In the end, it takes a certain amount of energy to kill someone, particularly faster than they can scream, and that's not going to be silent. Closest you could come would probably be some form of high powered crossbow, speargun, or dart slingshot.

Note that all of these approach the energy problem much the same way, fire a slower but more massive projectile. I don't see any reason you couldn't in principle design a fully automatic weapon (perhaps with an electric motor since gas operation obviously useless and containing the propellant gases is going to greatly reduce recoil) firing confined piston ammunition with weights around 0.1 lb per shot that could be pretty lethal. It's not going to look much like a conventional weapon, and the weight of the gun, and especially enough ammunition to make autofire worthwhile, is likely to be pretty prohibative for troops that aren't in cinematic battlesuits, but it's not actually superscience.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Note that all of these approach the energy problem much the same way, fire a slower but more massive projectile.

Also sharp and with a fairly extreme aspect ratio, such that you probably need fin stabilization; that makes a conventional gun a bit harder to make, though sabot weapons aren't that exotic. I might favor an air gun over cartridge weapons.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Also sharp and with a fairly extreme aspect ratio, such that you probably need fin stabilization; that makes a conventional gun a bit harder to make, though sabot weapons aren't that exotic. I might favor an air gun over cartridge weapons.

I'd think that sabots would be a noise source, and with an airgun you'll still probably need to confine the gas to achieve this level of quiet...

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd think that sabots would be a noise source, and with an airgun you'll still probably need to confine the gas to achieve this level of quiet...

Air guns can be pretty quiet already - mostly because they aren't pushing the air or the pellet to very high velocities. Powder as a pressure generator is lower weight though, and rounds are already going to be heavy. Of course you might be better off with a separate black powder charge, no supersonic shock in the explosive.

But anyway if you have half a million dollars, I'm sure you can hire a few engineers and machinist gunsmiths for a few months and they can design and build you something as quiet, portable, long ranged and lethal as a high ST crossbow. Whether that's worth the effort is more doubtful, though you should be able to beat the crossbow's rate of fire.

[Kax]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Yep. So, what would this take? How much would it cost (ballpark)? And could it still use normal ammo interchangeable?


That's what I'm guessing. My players have that already, but are trying to see if they can get something better. I have my doubts, but I'm not the expert, thus the post on the forums...

There are such weapons, one based on a M16 and another based on a 7.62 base (can't remember the base firearm).

They do it by getting the case and necking it out to a larger round, then using the right bullet mass/powder mix get a round that is barely subsonic (the M16 uses a 7.62 bullet, the larger one uses a 0.50 BMG bullet). The barrel is a silencer along its whole length.

This gives you a semi-auto counter-sniper weapon where the most noise it makes on firing it is the click of the striker hitting the pin. The Whisper 7.62 has a useful range (ie., assured-kill range--this would be 1/2 damage range) of about 3/4 mile, the Whisper 0.50 has a useful range of about a mile.

The weapons cannot fire any other round--you would destroy the silencer component if you did, and they'd have to be specially made anyway. And who'd want to? :)

I can supply a Janes writeup if needed.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Kax

There are such weapons, one based on a M16 and another based on a 7.62 base (can't remember the base firearm).

They do it by getting the case and necking it out to a larger round, then using the right bullet mass/powder mix get a round that is barely subsonic (the M16 uses a 7.62 bullet, the larger one uses a 0.50 BMG bullet). The barrel is a silencer along its whole length.

This gives you a semi-auto counter-sniper weapon where the most noise it makes on firing it is the click of the striker hitting the pin. The Whisper 7.62 has a useful range (ie., assured-kill range--this would be 1/2 damage range) of about 3/4 mile, the Whisper 0.50 has a useful range of about a mile.

The weapons cannot fire any other round--you would destroy the silencer component if you did, and they'd have to be specially made anyway. And who'd want to? :)

I can supply a Janes writeup if needed.

If you mean the .300 Whisper that is simply a subsonic round. It isn't really a "counter-sniper" weapon in the slightest. The noise reduction is a classic exaggeration for quiet weapons, people who make new bullets tend to hype their designs absurdly.

[Kax]

Originally Posted by lexington

If you mean the .300 Whisper that is simply a subsonic round. It isn't really a "counter-sniper" weapon in the slightest. The noise reduction is a classic exaggeration for quiet weapons, people who make new bullets tend to hype their designs absurdly.

The description is from a gun mag review firing of the smaller one. I never believe the brochures. And, IIRC, the Janes article lists the dB values.

It is the minmaxing of a large heavy subsonic round and a silenced barrel, like any good munchkin weapon designer. :)