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Old 08-30-2020, 12:20 PM   #61
MrFix
 
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
I will look into that.

The M2 is an inherently more accurate system than the FN Minimi, as it fires from a close bolt rather than an open bolt. The M2 Is also a heavy machine gun fired from a fixed tripod rather than a light machine gun fired from a Deployable bipod. M249 is a 12 MoA gun, I could not find any direct numbers for the M2, the M82A1 Which as you have said it was inspired by the M2 is a 3 MoA gun bumped up to 1 MoA with match grade ammunition.
So I find it hard to believe that the FN Minimi Has the same base accuracy as the Remington 700.
"12 MOA" M249 is definitely not a factory new Minimi, think about what that entails for a moment. It means that the impact area is 1 foot cone at 100 meters. It means it's 4 feet cone at 400 meters. 6 feet cone at 600 meters. It means that you cannot target a man-sized target intentionally at common infantry ranges, and it means that it is almost impossible to score a hit upon a target 600 meters away (on the nearby mountain like in Afghanistan for example) without a lucky accident. There's no reason to adopt, let alone design, such a system because you can as easily design a system capable of rifle accuracy, which would be infinitely more useful for suppression, because nobody is more suppressed when they're dead, and nobody is more scared of your volume of fire than when they witness their comrades drop on the ground injured or dead, and if dispersion is needed, it can be provided by MG's operator, not the system.

I searched around for M249 accuracy and got results ranging from 6 MOA down to 1.5 MOA, depending on the condition of the weapon and the barrel (Most M249s in US service for example are extremely beaten up). HT actually models such issues on HT85 - sustained fire with MG drops it's acc and malf by 2 (acc 5 minimi becomes 3).

So, in that sense, FN Minimi is comparable to Remington 700 if it was treated and maintained well from MOA standpoint. Is this a realism issue? Not really, a sniper can use whatever he wants and there are millions of weapon designs with millions of pros and cons. If a sniper chooses Rem 700 over FN Minimi, it means Rem 700 is better for his work, not that it is better overall. If a sniper chooses MINIMI, it also means it's better for his work, but that doesn't mean it's better overall. I won't go into details why it is this and that because it'll be a long post.

Is it a balance issue? Not really. Rem 700 costs MUCH less (meaning it can be fine accurate for cheaper), is MUCH lighter, comes in MANY calibers, has LESS ST requirements and LESS BULK. It also has more damage when we compare Minimi's 7.62x51 version with Rem 700 in 7.62x51.

In the end, if your players snipe with LMGs, it is not an issue at all from any perspective except personal taste, and GURPS mechanics already provide reasonable drawbacks to doing so without making things unreasonable.
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Old 09-13-2020, 11:10 PM   #62
solidsingularity
 
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
"

I searched around for M249 accuracy and got results ranging from 6 MOA down to 1.5 MOA
Where did you find that?
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:23 AM   #63
MrFix
 
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
Where did you find that?
Ugh, I had the article open for like 2 weeks and when I finally closed it, you ask about it. I'll search around for it and add the link in an edit.

The gist of the article was that in the early 2000s as part of a program to replace M249, a bunch of firearms were gathered from the competitors as potential replacement, including the H&K G36 (Not MG36), Ultimax 100 and Colt AR. They gathered new marines and had them fire each of the weapon across numerous courses. The end result was that M249 behaved similarly, or better than G36 in accuracy department. The internet reports that G36 has MOA of 1.5-3.

Other forum posts suggested that their M249 was accurate enough (the 6 MOA number). Noveske also makes AR-15 barrels using M249 specs, which end up performing within 1-1.5 MOA. This data suggests to me that M249 is at best only slightly less accurate than M16 and G36, and this is probably owed to it's open bolt design.

Edit: Marine Corps Magazine: Automatic Rifle Concept: Part I—History and Empirical Testing
Forum topic of AR-15 users speaking about their experience with Noveske M249-pattern AR15 barrel

Quote:
The M249 SAW provides the accuracy that fire teams and squads require. The quantitative tests of Phase I proved the variation in accuracy between the M249 SAW and its competitors small enough to not be worth the time, money, and effort to replace it. Despite the mitigation of the accuracy issue, the M249 SAW could not meet the requirements of mobility and semiautomatic fire accuracy.
Unfortunately, the competitors tested during Phase I of the AR assessment do not appear to offer what the Marine Corps needs. As stated previously, the HK failed to stay on target in burst fire while the Ultimax sight system did not present to the eye at all. The commonality of the Colt AR with the M16A2 appeared to be advantageous. Yet the Colt proved to be the only weapon that experienced negligent discharges during the firing of 120,000 rounds. This fault resulted, in part, from young Marines failing to understand the open-bolt system but also, in part, from weapon design. Open bolts are inherently dangerous. Traditionally, we fear carrying an open-bolt weapon in the condition one mode of ready to fire. The primary shooter can be trained to be safe with the weapon, but primary shooter casualties will soon place the weapons in untrained hands, quickly leading to friendly fire hazards.
Quote:
Phase I testing did not provide a “yes” to the original question—“is an AR more accurate than the M249 SAW?” It did, however, highlight the need for a mobile AR, capable of semiautomatic fire at the fire team level. Further, it illuminated the need to address the future employment and role of the M249 SAW light machinegun and a “true” AR in the fire teams, squads, and platoons of the Marine Corps.
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GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit

Last edited by MrFix; 09-16-2020 at 09:45 AM.
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