[Guns] What does accuracy represent?

[solidsingularity]

Originally Posted by Toptomcat

Set up an FN Minimi with the kind of accessories as a typical Remington Model 700, give it the same kind of careful maintenance a precision shooter gives their Model 700, take as much care in selecting the ammunition, and do the same kind of carefully-aimed-single-shots shooting with it as is typically done with a Model 700, and I'll bet that at many ranges the results are a lot closer than you'd think they'd be, given your surface-level impression of 'what's the more inherently accurate weapon?' Inherent MoA of a weapon in a bench rest isn't all, or even most, of the story when it comes to practical accuracy.

But the fact that the FN Minimi Fires from an open introduces a lot of movement Into the system before the sear is even dropped whereas the 700 is a direct disconnect from the trigger to the sear, that would affect accuracy.
If they both have According to GURPS HT the same cold bore shot potential, then why do snipers not use light machine guns?

[Kromm]

The answer has already been given: Specific makes and models of firearms rarely get Accuracy based on measured real-world performance. In almost all cases, Acc is simply assigned based on broad weapon type.

Tiniest concealable/pocket pistols: 0-1
Smaller-frame, shorter-barrelled pistols: 1-2
Larger-frame, longer-barrelled pistols: 2
Full-automatic machine pistols: 2
Shorty or hacked-down shotguns: 2
Muskets: 2
Rifle-caliber target pistols: 3
Most shotguns: 3
Submachine guns: 3-4
Carbines: 3-4
Most rifles: 4-5
Purpose-built sniper and anti-materiel rifles: 5-6
Machine guns: 5-6

Where there's a range, the low end is used for things that have at least one of no or poor sights, an unusually short barrel (and thus less severe Bulk), or just a bad reputation.

Ultra-low-velocity weapons like air rifles, dart guns, tasers, and early flintlocks get -2 or worse relative to the above, minimum 0.

Note that all Acc values reflect the weapon's performance in its intended role. Machine guns are comparable to sniper and anti-materiel rifles because they have heavy barrels and (generally) bipods or tripods, allowing them to consistently engage area targets at long ranges.

"Effective range" has nothing to do with this. That's what the 1/2D stat is for.

[solidsingularity]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That's mostly a question of Rule of Cool: Yes, hardware sets a limit, but you ignore that in stories where the hardware is really just a way for a leading character to express their ridiculous expertise. It isn't unique to games, or to guns. The example that races to mind is Bullitt . . . there's no way a Ford Mustang GT Fastback can out-race a 440 Magnum Dodge Charger, but the story calls for it, so that's what happens.

This makes sense especially for GUPRS Basic, And undoubtedly the right call for 80% to 90% of games.
That being said I would love to see a supplement that gave a more granular treatment on guns that dived into their different divergent qualities and that Increase the resolution on weapon stats.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by solidsingularity

If they both have, according to GURPS HT, the same cold bore shot potential, then why do snipers not use light machine guns?

Light machine guns are rather heavier than bolt-action rifles, and the ammunition you need to carry to make use of the LMG's rate of fire adds still more weight. The high RoF is not very useful in sniping, because the extra rounds will often miss, due to the vibration induced by recoil.

Sniping with .50 BMG rifles was actually invented via use of a .50 machine gun with a scope.

[solidsingularity]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Machine guns are comparable to sniper and anti-materiel rifles because they have heavy barrels and (generally) bipods or tripods, allowing them to consistently engage area targets at long ranges.

Are there any rules that prevent them from being used for precision work?
If Acc is assigned to guns based on how well they handle rang penalties but the stat is also used for how well the gun is for targeted shots could you give Acc the same treatment that is used for vehicle handling and stability?
Here is my idea for this:
All Acc stats are listed as x/y, where X is the guns range Acc, this reduced range penalties by whatever its value is when the gun is aimed or braced, and where Y is the guns precision Acc, this gives a skill bonus for buying off targeted attack penalties when the gun is aimed.

[martinl]

Folks have discussed why it works the way it does, but allow me to add that "sniper pistols" and similar weirdness are perfectly cromulent things to add to your game. Just keep in mind that if there is an acc-6 pistol available to the PCs it better have severe drawbacks or everyone will want one. (Doubly so if there are gunslingers.)

[solidsingularity]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Light machine guns are rather heavier than bolt-action rifles, and the ammunition you need to carry to make use of the LMG's rate of fire adds still more weight. The high RoF is not very useful in sniping, because the extra rounds will often miss, due to the vibration induced by recoil.

The M2 is a rotating bolt system with a 45-inch barrel whereas the FN Minimi is an open bolt with a 18-inch barrel. Also, it is not a light machine gun.
The Minimi does have an RoF of 12! however, a select-fire trigger group was made for the MK46 so we know that the "!" could be removed thus allowing the gun to take singe aimed cold bore shots at +5.

[solidsingularity]

Originally Posted by weby

It is not minute of angle as a typical modern 5.56 carbine gets acc 4 but even the Winchester M1894 acc 5 and the modern carbine is WAY more accurate.

Or as I put it an earlier topic on the same thing: A WW2 infantry rifle with acc 5 has expected MOA of maybe 3-4, but a modern 5.56 carbine with acc 4 of maybe about 1 MOA.

I've also noticed this and it is the crux of my problem with guns in GURPS High-Tech.

Originally Posted by weby

A pocket pistol with no sights: 0
A small pistol with sights: 1
A large pistol: 2
A short smg: 3
A carbine or large smg: 4
Rifle: 5

It seems from this that accuracy is only meant to represent a gun's ability to land shots at range. Which is fine except accuracy also gives you a bonus to make targeted shots at shorter ranges. I think a possible solution would be dividing accuracy into two numbers the first being the range accuracy a number by which you reduce range penalties when braced or aimed in the second the precision accuracy is a bonus applied to target shots when aimed.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by solidsingularity

Are there any rules that prevent them from being used for precision work?

I think I answered that in a prior reply. The LMG is used with a bipod, i would be less accurate without that. Rifles can also be used from a bipod but arent typically and the weapon tables reflect typical use.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by solidsingularity

But the fact that the FN Minimi Fires from an open introduces a lot of movement Into the system before the sear is even dropped whereas the 700 is a direct disconnect from the trigger to the sear, that would affect accuracy.
If they both have According to GURPS HT the same cold bore shot potential, then why do snipers not use light machine guns?

(Channels safisher) because snipers live in the real world, and GURPS characters live in a game which is simple enough for high-schoolers to play at 2 am.