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Old 07-09-2008, 10:58 AM   #251
knarf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by enpeze
Trivial? Sorry but that is nonsense. Gurps is one of the most complex systems (if not THE most complex) a roleplayer can use today and you say its "trivial"?




You make the mistake to think the average player is able to adapt and rewrite a setting for a 800p rule monster. (and I count only the core rules of Gurps) No these luxurious abilty only have a few rpgers. The majority and I mean 90% of the players dont either have time and the talent to do this. They just want to sit down for an evening and play this game from 20h-23.30h without too much preparation. So I think that SJG adresses only a extremely small percentage of rpg fans with the GURPS game - those with enough creativity and intelligence paired with plenty of free time to change any setting they like. But I am speaking from the normal rpg folk not the elite. SJG dont adress these people. Its like selling a Lamborghini and then saying: "Well and now construct your highway by yourself."
For one thing, the GM is the one doing the prep, not the average player. Second of all, a smart GM converts only what he needs. The name of the town, it's history, economy and politics can remain unchanged. The only things that need changing are the things that need stats. If you're running a dungeon crawl, that can add up. For a social or political adventure, all you need are a few skill ratings to determine how hard or easy it is to manipulate whoever it is.
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:13 AM   #252
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by enpeze
Did you ever consider that those people probably are right? Look at your Gurps books and then look at easy generic systems like Basic Roleplaying, OMNI, spirit of the century or Savage Worlds and then tell me again that Gurps is not complex. Or compare it to older versions of D&D. Maybe you are already too much into the system to perceive its complexity? The only system in english language I know which is on par with Gurps on complexity is maybe Rolemaster.
While the GURPS Basic Set does have a wide variety of traits and can be intimidating, the thing to keep in mind is that you only have to use the parts that you want to. There's no one forcing you to use every trait and every rule. It's possible that the more you understand the system, the more you realize this truth.
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:34 AM   #253
knarf
 
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by enpeze
Really? Why do you think this? I think that the numbers are mediocre at best. They are so small that they force the company to produce one munchkin set after the other just to stay alive.
They're actually pushing Munchkin because it sells like crazy. Wouldn't you focus on the thing that makes you a lot of money as opposed to the thing that bring in a more modest amount of money?

If there wasn't enough money in putting out more GURPS material, they would simply stop doing it, I'm sure.

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There is a reason why Gurps dont sell better than it does now. There is a reason why Exalted sells better and D&D and even some third party suppliers of D20. I am sure there a a dozen other companies which sell more of their rpg stuff than SJG does. And this despite Gurps is theoretically a better rule system than most of those mentioned. So we have a disparity of very good quality but lacking sales numbers. Again this is IMO because SJG is selling a Lamborghini and telling the customer: "so now you have to construct your highway by yourself".
The advantage that those books have is that they are tied to specific sets of assumptions. D&D is built around "dungeon fantasy." Exalted has its own epic, anime-esque setting.

A more apt metaphor would be: You can buy a car that will get you to work and back, and maybe on a road trip or two, or you can buy a kit for a car that can drive on any terrain and gets 65 miles per gallon of gasoline.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:07 PM   #254
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by robertsconley
I am not talking about making more buckets but making a bucket that attracts players of the most popular rpg out there. The rest of the GURPS line can be continued as it always has. This is in ADDITION not instead of the main GURPS Line.
So where does the money for it come from?
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:08 PM   #255
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by blacksmith
So where does the money for it come from?
Looks like the concept of opportunity cost has flown right over his head, I'm afraid.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:11 PM   #256
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Looks like the concept of opportunity cost has flown right over his head, I'm afraid.
No the point is that, it means that more money needs to be spent on GURPS, to do what he is proposing and he does not seem to achnolege that.

It should be noted that GURPS has done this in the past with the Powered by GURPS lines.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:13 PM   #257
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by enpeze
This I dont think. I think the market is growing in general. But the cake is distributet to more companies than in the golden rpg age. If Gurps sales numbers are shrinking then they should develope a new marketing strategy to beat the competition and not retreating.
Based on the sales numbers I've seen over the past decade, I feel secure in saying the market for RPGs is shrinking.

New marketing strategies are a valid response to a shrinking market. However, many would point out that you're fighting harder for a smaller pie; it may be better, in the long run, to look for new pie. Right now, the pie representing board games is growing, so that's where we're putting our efforts.

Of course, we are not ignoring the RPG market, as anyone who has watched the Daily Illuminator can tell you. We've merely shifted our focus to a new distribution system -- the merits and flaws of which are an entirely different topic.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:18 PM   #258
knarf
 
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by enpeze
I am not that good in english that I could express it precisely. But with mediocre I compare it to the point a product makes money and is more than self sufficient in its cost if you know what I mean.
That is the definition of mediocre. I do not believe that GURPS sales are mediocre. They may be small by a number of standards, but SJGames is making enough money that it worth it to keep making more GURPS.

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So is Gurps just catering a special group of roleplayers in the community or is Gurps an "elitist" game? (like membership in a english country club?) Or why should one think that it lowers the quality of the books just because you produce ready to play material for "common" gamers.
I don't think it's a matter of snobbery and more a matter of knowing the market. The people who pick up GURPS as opposed to another product are looking for certain specific things. Other games can fill other needs, but GURPS provides it's market with what they want.

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So you think that all good freelance writers and editors out there has been adressed by the Gurps headhunter agency? I doubt it. I rather suppose that there has not much effort going into finding them.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:19 PM   #259
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Looks like the concept of opportunity cost has flown right over his head, I'm afraid.
So what about the opportunity cost of not having NEW players.

You want the next expansion of the GURPS line. I say focus on attracting new players.

That is the fundamental point of difference between our positions.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:32 PM   #260
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by Paul
Based on the sales numbers I've seen over the past decade, I feel secure in saying the market for RPGs is shrinking.

New marketing strategies are a valid response to a shrinking market. However, many would point out that you're fighting harder for a smaller pie; it may be better, in the long run, to look for new pie. Right now, the pie representing board games is growing, so that's where we're putting our efforts.
I understand and that it is great that Munchkin is working out for the Company. In some ways we are returning to the pre-RPG days when board and miniatures were king.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
Of course, we are not ignoring the RPG market, as anyone who has watched the Daily Illuminator can tell you. We've merely shifted our focus to a new distribution system -- the merits and flaws of which are an entirely different topic.
You will still need to have a game store presence especially to draw new players. Without new players then the E23 effort is not going to work well. Once they are hooked then E23 will be more of a factor because then they will be motivated to seek out new products.

If you are only going to do one or two GURPS Hardbacks a year then let one of them be a complete RPG for the different genres. Fantasy, Space, and Horror in order is my personal opinion.

Post it on E23 as a PDF but also in the stores. GURPS 4th edition Core book as they stand intimidate too many players from picking up an otherwise fun and easy system. GURPS Lite is internet only and not a complete RPG for any particular Genre.

Or make it easier for Third Parties to take a crack at it by providing ready to run materials supporting the main line.

I have a strong opinion about this because GURPS is a good system and I have recent experience tying to get new players for my GURPS Game. In addition I rather be writing adventures and setting material for GURPS rather than the D20/Generic stuff I been dealing with so far.
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