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Old 07-06-2008, 09:43 PM   #171
hackbarth
 
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

I can't see anyone jumping trough the hoops of the Powered By GURPS system if they can make an d20 OGL without a phone call to WotC.

That shows the value that quality control has in SJGames, and that is one of he things that I like about GURPS. But doesn't get third parties generating material.

I liked many of the 3e SJG settings, and as I said above, would buy more of the original settings made. But I agree that the quality varies, THS is the best RPG setting in my opinion, and Fantasy II seems really bad to me. (Didn't buy it, but read a good chunk at my FLRGS).

Maybe the editors are more cautious after one or more settigs that gamers didn't relate to, like Fantasy II. Sometimes, when a setting don't sell, maybe it was only a bad setting, not that GURPS players don't want settings.

By all means, do more original settings! I'll certainly buy some. Let me put my money where my mouth is.

(Uhmm, I need to remember myself to buy ISW when next paycheck arrives)
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:01 PM   #172
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David L Pulver
So, why doesn't GURPS have more original fantasy or science fiction settings that are original enough to be interesting, but not so original as to be alienating? Well, GURPS is somewhat freelancer driven, but freelancers have to sell their work to management. And it's a hard sell to say "I will do a VERY GOOD classic fantasy (or science fiction) setting."
The standard tropes for the major RPG genres have long been established. GURPS operates on several levels. Two of them, the generic tookit, and imaginative settings, possible because of the toolkit, have been done a lot with various genres.

However the idea the GURPS as a alternative to the STANDARD rpgs that are out there are not well supported. The E23 PDFs for Space and Dungeon Fantasy are great for existing fans but does nothing for where the vast majority of sales take place which are the stores.

Classic fantasy shouldn't be a hard sell. We know what people expect from the world most popular RPG. The setting wouldn't have to be much of a setting at all. Just the same implied setting that has underlied D&D since 1974. Or Traveller since 1977. Or Call of Cthulu.

In western PA everyone that i know that plays GURPS plays as a better alternative. In most opinions it is better because it more flexible and better grounded realism. While most don't come out and say it but it also because it simply a quality GAME (like most of SJ Games stuff)

The people that don't play GURPS and heard of it are all intimidated by it's toolkit nature and the barebone support of any genre in the core book. It simply too much work to pick up and play GURPS. Even when you thrown in one of the genre or setting books.

What GURPS needs is everything that other Fantasy RPG have. The same for Horror, and Space.
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:15 AM   #173
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David L Pulver
For my own selfish reasons, I've wanted to have a space setting that would use Ultra-Tech and Spaceships and Bio-Tech "out of the box" [i.e., without special expections and conversion rules for the setting]. And yeah, that means galactic empires and struggling Earth federation and nanotechnology and AIs and fleets of starships and dozens of alien races and blasters and force screens and the whole shebang. The goal isn't to copy someone else's genre (though we'd be in the mainstream of the New Space Opera): the goal is to take what GURPS does well - and that's lots of cool stuff - and build a setting that showcases that GURPS goodness, and is also a more playable and somewhat open sandbox to adventure in then either THS or, to some extent Traveller.
For my own selfish reasons, I want you to get exactly what you want.
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:30 AM   #174
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

I think Fantasy II was a great setting. Unfortunately, there was no generic swords-and-sorcery setting for it to be the alternative setting to. Fantasy II took a niche gaming system, then thrust it into a niche setting, without even a large pool of GURPS Fantasy fans to draw on.
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:52 AM   #175
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by David L Pulver
In any event, as hinted above, my goal would be to create a setting that actively supports Ultra-Tech, Space, Bio-Tech, and Spaceships and its sequels. Which means a wide-open inclusive space opera, but one that is firmly in the new Space Opera tradition of the 1990s-2008 rather than the 1950s-1960s version (for which plenty of RPGs already exist). SO it goes.


Now, would TPTB at SJG *please* pay David to actually write that thing?!?

Heck, I'd even be willing to pay into a "ransom model" fund for this! (Not quite as much as I'd pay for (A) Hite's Madness Dossier or a (B) Pulver+Punch sf/gore/shooter setting in the tradition of Riddick, Halo, Gears of War, System Shock, Aliens, Predator, Starship Troopers, etc. - but still quite a bit...)
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:30 AM   #176
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

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Originally Posted by The Cardinal
Now, would TPTB at SJG *please* pay David to actually write that thing?!?
Well, at the moment, I do have some other projects I'm sure they'd prefer were completed first (e.g., the rest of Spaceships). I have discussed the space opera idea with Sean and various others in the past, though I probably need to update the proposal...
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Last edited by David L Pulver; 07-07-2008 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:27 AM   #177
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cernig
I've already said what I think SJG should be doing with "Powered By Gurps" as part of their marketing plan - stop being such rules geeks and use it far more widely (and loosely) to license new settings to entice gamers to the core rules.

As to SJG products themselves - Ive a few thoughts from 20 years in gaming and the same time in new business development and marketing:

1) As many have noted, SJG has tons of setting already. But several are not yet upgraded to 4e. Only a few want to be troubled with the conversions themselves - get on with it already.

2) Adventure modules for the various SJG settings, with an option for ready-to-go characters. Lots of them, from both in-house and "Powered By GURPS" sources. This kind of support for the rulebooks already extant should be SJG's priority from a marketing standpoint. Only a few GMs want to trouble themselves with writing their own from scratch and many of us already play GURPS. The rest are running some other game where they can plug-and-play modules written by pros. (It's also easier, as one poster noted, to 'file' the setting-specific identifiers off a good module and convert it for your own homebrew setting than to write your own.)

3) The in-house magazine, Pyramid, should be a vehicle for small adventure scenarios, plot-hooks etc based on the existing settings, not yet another repository of rules variants and expansions many will read but few will use.

4) Someone at SJG should be following up these new modules with outreach to indie game stores and conventions, offering them freebie copies and MIBs to run demo games. Take a few tips from GW's early days on how to conduct marketing.

Conclusion: Damn few will bother to remember that new rule expansion book or Pyramid article over and above the masses already available in the main books when they're writing their own stuff. Either deliver new rules options along with adventure modules using them or don't bother, because right now SJG is creating a self-limiting market. There are only so many rules-purist, smart, imaginative gamers with time on their hands to create their own adventures and campaigns out there, and the rest (the vast majority) aren't playing GURPS. Yet.

Regards, C
How true. SJG should listen to this guy. I think without regular release of ready-to-go adventure modules and a focus on a few but well supported generic settings (as David Pulver clearly states that there is a reason behind the fact that the Forgotten Realms setting is very popular among roleplayers) in the future Gurps will be only played by a few geek gamers and rule fanatics with too much time at their hands. At the moment Gurps offers not much innovation and perspective. Are there any plans with this rpg beside releasing a new 300p rulebook monster per year? Is this really what SJG wants?

So IMO SJG should give this new space opera setting of David Pulver a try and use it as example what Gurps is capable of.
They should also release either more material for Yrth or another generic fantasy setting in the tradition of Forgotten realms. Many normal roleplayers prefer this instead of myriard specialist mini-settings.
The third setting to concentrate on could be the IW setting.
Additionally SJG should stop to release tedious rulebooks and making adventures stuff instead so that the people without much time - I guess the majority of the adult roleplayers - are able to actually use the system and not just creating characters or reading the rulebooks. Maybe this is not very profitable in the beginning because of the special Gurps customer base but it definately would strengthen the trademark in the long run and bring fresh people to the system.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:55 AM   #178
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David L Pulver
No, Yrth is not "mainstream" - with its alternate Earth setting, lack of fantasy gods, etc., nor is the Rome setting in GURPS Fantasy.
Oddly enough, I'd say that they were fairly mainstream. It's just that it's 1930s/40s mainstream.

They'd both have looked quite a bit less non-standard if they'd appeared back in the early days of Fritz Leiber and Sprague de Camp. Sure, they don't align exactly to anything either of those two examples published - and the lack of fantasy gods is a bit unusual for any era - but I contend that a golden-age-of-pulp-magazines audience wouldn't have blinked at either. They only look weird in the context of the modern fantasy boom. In fact, they probably only look weird in a post-D&D market.
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Old 07-07-2008, 08:01 AM   #179
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cernig
I've already said what I think SJG should be doing with "Powered By Gurps" as part of their marketing plan - stop being such rules geeks and use it far more widely (and loosely) to license new settings to entice gamers to the core rules.

As to SJG products themselves - Ive a few thoughts from 20 years in gaming and the same time in new business development and marketing:

1) As many have noted, SJG has tons of setting already. But several are not yet upgraded to 4e. Only a few want to be troubled with the conversions themselves - get on with it already.

2) Adventure modules for the various SJG settings, with an option for ready-to-go characters. Lots of them, from both in-house and "Powered By GURPS" sources. This kind of support for the rulebooks already extant should be SJG's priority from a marketing standpoint. Only a few GMs want to trouble themselves with writing their own from scratch and many of us already play GURPS. The rest are running some other game where they can plug-and-play modules written by pros. (It's also easier, as one poster noted, to 'file' the setting-specific identifiers off a good module and convert it for your own homebrew setting than to write your own.)

3) The in-house magazine, Pyramid, should be a vehicle for small adventure scenarios, plot-hooks etc based on the existing settings, not yet another repository of rules variants and expansions many will read but few will use.

4) Someone at SJG should be following up these new modules with outreach to indie game stores and conventions, offering them freebie copies and MIBs to run demo games. Take a few tips from GW's early days on how to conduct marketing.

Conclusion: Damn few will bother to remember that new rule expansion book or Pyramid article over and above the masses already available in the main books when they're writing their own stuff. Either deliver new rules options along with adventure modules using them or don't bother, because right now SJG is creating a self-limiting market. There are only so many rules-purist, smart, imaginative gamers with time on their hands to create their own adventures and campaigns out there, and the rest (the vast majority) aren't playing GURPS. Yet.

Regards, C
This really does not seem to represent the way the GURPS market works.

Rules always sold better than settings, and adventures never sold well.

The GURPS market never was clamboring for adventures
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Old 07-07-2008, 08:48 AM   #180
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Default Re: Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith
This really does not seem to represent the way the GURPS market works.

Rules always sold better than settings, and adventures never sold well.

The GURPS market never was clamboring for adventures
I diagree with you on this. Maybe setting and adventures wasn't the GURPS market a few years ago but I don't think it's the same today. Don't forget that markets evolves over the years. Thinking that you market never changes is pretty foolish. Just take cars for example, putting a MP3 player jack in the 1990's would have probably been a useless feature compared to today's market where it is probably seen as a necessity. How many D&D refugees have been joining GURPS recently ? How many times have I seen these questions pop-up on the forums from D&D refugees GURPS newcomers :

1. Where can I find adventure modules ?
2. Is there a Monster Manual/Beastiary, etc. ?

I have a feeling that with the GURPS market did evolve and I don't know if the DF series would have sold like this a few years ago (and I wouldn't know as I have started playing GURPS only when 4e came out).
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